Carbonox_Ratchet
13-01-10, 15:09
Opening:
After putting a good 16/17 hours in to Bayonetta so far, it dawned on me: How will Devil May Cry 5 cope with such a near-flawless Stylish Action title? Bayonetta pushes the boundaries where depth and possibilities are concerned, something only Devil May Cry could do for many years until the roadblock that was Devil May Cry 4.
Bayonetta enables you to perform a ridiculous amount of techniques and abilities that ALL shape and affect a fight. There are different methods in defence play and many methods in your offensive play. The manner in which you can string them together and go from A to B without having to pause alleviates any fears that could have easily stemmed from such faith in the title. It's very easy to glitch the system so-to-speak, in that you can easily create a game that can break from the slightest inconsistency in a combat string (horrendous pausing between any desired chain). Yet, Platinum Games nailed a solid, intuitive and progressive system that has little room for breaks and pauses. It evolves and your play evolves with it. For such a near-perfect system, it can easily pave the way for a new generation of Action games. Devil May Cry being the closest competitor.
While Devil May Cry 4 was a good Action game, it lacked the spark and efficiency of Devil May Cry 3, and also failed to take advantage of the path Devil May Cry 3 set. Fans were looking for an evolution for the next generation, not a minor progression. Nero's lack of depth hurt the game deeply and went against the very foundation that Devil May Cry 3 established ('unless it's deep, don't bother'). Unfortunately, the game was built in favor of Nero, with enemies and bosses catering to Nero's style. Where Dante is concerned, you have an out-of-place character with a horribly unbalanced combat engine. Style-changing was a nice idea but horrendously convoluted in how you switch between the styles. It's very hard to get a consistent flow with Trickster to dodge an enemy (or Royal Guard to block an attack), backed by a Gunslinger combo to floor an enemy, to a Sword Master combo to finish the enemy off.
Yet, such a combo is minor in a game like Bayonetta where you can dodge and parry at any time with a single press of a button or a movement of the left stick, perform a combination of Gun Slinger and Sword Master moves (depending on your weapon of choice, further backed by the weapon switching) and even finish off with a flashy special attack (known as a Wicked Weave in Bayonetta, or if possible, a Torture Attack). All without having to constantly press additional buttons on top of the obvious Square/Triangle/Circle (with the exception of R2 but it's comfortably accessible).
THAT is an easy, comfortable and accessible control scheme. It's not marred by unnecessary switching between the D-Pad buttons and the main face buttons for combat, with efficient pressing requiring the use of unfathomable timing and amount of hands that you do not possess. But I digress; the underlining issue is that Devil May Cry 4's combat can be accessible with Nero but horribly unbalanced with Dante, despite the various exploitations and mechanics you can apply to his moveset (that require very little combo energy).
So how do we shift it all around with Devil May Cry 5?...
Get rid of Styles altogether!:
What? Are you crazy? Yes and no.
As I said above, Devil May Cry 4 was unbalanced in many ways and lacked any real intuition, further marred by the inability of the enemies to actually give you grief and a style system that - whilst somewhat evolutionary - was broken due to the poorly implemented controls.
For Devil May Cry 5 to actually make it easier to pull off the variety of styles, implementing a new system that removes the need to have to change between styles and to actually enable you to pull them off on the go in any possible combo, without having to press any silly D-Pad buttons would be a good start.
For that, you look to Bayonetta.
Bayonetta's system involves the following (noting the important buttons):
Left Analog Stick: Movement, different directions affect different combos & Parry/Counter
L2: Switch between Set A (consists of two weapons; one for hands and one for feet) and Set B (same again)
R2: Dodge (holding R2 as well as accompanying it with Circle or Triangle can enable some flashy offensive attacks but they're irrelevant)
Triangle: Melee attacks (hands)
Circle: Melee attacks (feet)
Square: Basic shooting
X: Jump; can also be applied for jump cancelling and even hurting an enemy in the process.
That is all that's required in Bayonetta where basics are concerned. Now let's look at Devil May Cry 4:
Left Analog Stick: Movement, different directions affect different combos
L1: Devil Trigger
L2: Switch between guns
R2: Switch between melee weapons
Triangle: Melee attacks
Circle: Style abilities
Square: Shooting
X: Jumping
D-Pad Up: Style
D-Pad Left: Style
D-Pad Right: Style
D-Pad Down: Style
As you can see, you have two somewhat different control set ups. One enables you to do everything and more that the other should do, whereas the said 'other' makes it a chore to effectively do anything consistently in the way you WANT it.
How do you remedy this? Remove Styles altogether and opt for a similar system to what Bayonetta incorporates. Narrow it down and remove the needless buttons.
You can essentially copy and paste the Bayonetta control scheme in to Devil May Cry for maximum effect. L1 would still work for Devil Trigger (as opposed to taunting as it is in Bayonetta) and you can replace individual weapons with weapon sets. Now that brings me to the next part.
How do you incorporate hand and foot weapons without making it look silly? No, you don't give Dante or Nero guns on their feet. However, you can apply special foot weapons. For example, you could split Beowulf in to hand and foot weapons. Apply them both in the menu and boom, you have the full shebang for maximum effect. Or, you can use the Beowulf grieves on your foot and equip Rebellion on your hands. The trick is coming up with appropriate foot weapons aside from the obvious grieves (like you get with Ifrit, Beowulf or Gilgamesh).
This way you can alternate between hand and foot combos with ease and perform powerful attacks. You could even choose to equip Ebony & Ivory as prominent hand weapons and use Triangle to perform powerful attacks and combos; even relative to what you see in the film Equilibrium or how Dante and Nero took on eachother with their guns in the main opening scene of Devil May Cry 4. If you want to switch to a sword, switch to Set B and perform Rebellion attacks in with your gun attacks. Giving the gun combat a Gun-Kata-esque feel (like in Equilibrium) could make the gun combat a lot more exciting. Again, the trick is coming up with appropriate firearms.
That's essentially cracking Sword Master and Gunslinger in one easy swoop without any need for style changing. You've essentially got the styles there and as opposed to the ideas of styles, they're replaced with weapons with each weapon having a sort of style locking in. Bayonetta can pretty much do Gunslinger and more or Sword Master and more depending on the weapon setup.
As for Trickster and Royal Guard, again, L2 would be the only weapon-switching function with two different sets of weapons (for four weapons in total), leaving R2 open. Different techniques can be pulled off with R2 for a Trickster-themed move set. R1 and R2 together could cause Dante to teleport to and from an enemy (somewhat like his Trickster ability previously that enabled this) or pressing R2 on its own could lead to simple dodging or running up and from walls for added agility. Pretty simple.
With Royal Guard, possibly incorporate the left stick as you would with the Moon of Maha-Kalaa in Bayonetta. This accessory lets you parry and even counter enemy attacks by pushing the left stick in the direction of the enemy at the right time. With Just Release, a simple R1 and quick push of the left stick could unleash the Just Release move once your bar is at full (for maximum damage).
Oh and with Nero coming up, how do you make Dante applicable to Nero? Nero can grab enemies from afar to carry on combos with enemies further away. Bayonetta has a whip weapon called Kulshedra which can also work like the Devil Bringer which grabs enemies and pulls them to you. Do you give Dante a more appropriate whip-like weapon? Another thing to consider. Might give it a Castlevania vibe but it's something that can apply unless you have abilities that close the distance quicker, rather than running after the next enemy. The teleportation move I mentioned above regarding Trickster might solve that solution as it plagued Dante in Devil May Cry 4.
Lastly, what about Dante's Devil Trigger? In Devil May Cry 4, his Devil Trigger enabled for an extension to some combos so that can still remain here. More power and bigger extensions and razmatazz to already-existing combos. No need to proper shake it up.
Again, all with a simpler control scheme that can allow you to put on the offensive right away without having to shift styles. Is it a straight rip from Bayonetta? Pretty much but you can also thank Devil May Cry (okay, Hideki Kamiya did that too) for many of the influences in Bayonetta. It's about taking what works from other games and molding them in to something that works for a new game. Influences help evolve games.
The final control setup:
Left Analog Stick: Movement, different directions affect different combos & Royal Guard abilities
L1: Devil Trigger
L2: Switch between Set A (consists of two weapons; one for hands and one for feet) and Set B (same again)
R1: Lock on
R2: Trickster abilities
Triangle: Melee attacks (hands)
Circle: Melee attacks (feet)
Square: Basic shooting
X: Jump; can also be applied for jump cancelling and even hurting an enemy in the process.
Next stop:
Nero:
What do we do to Nero? He has the Devil Bringer which utilized the Circle button. With his different combat style (including Revs on L2 with the Red Queen), a different control system may be in order. However, we also need Nero to be more diverse in his weapon set up.
Let's look at his current control setup (as of Devil May Cry 4):
Left Analog Stick: Movement, different directions affect different combos
L1: Devil Trigger
L2: Exceed
Triangle: Melee attacks
Circle: Devil Bringer
Square: Shooting
X: Jumping
That is essentially Nero's setup in a nutshell. A lot more basic. How to remedy this? Give the Devil Bringer the ability to function as a regular melee weapon and relegate the special finishers to QTE sequences when an enemy is weak or when your Devil Trigger bar is full.
With R2 being open, change it around with L2 and use it as another Set A/Set B button. R2 would then be Exceed which, if done right, can be a system that would apply to many of Nero's weapons. For example, the Devil Bringer may function as a normal 'boxing glove' per se but with Exceed timed correctly, the punches may become a lot more ethereal and bigger (phantom punching basically).
What weapons to give Nero? Yamato would be nice for starters. However, weapons on his feet would also be suitable unless Nero was now able to morph his Devil Bringer in to a variety of different demonic weapons (basic Devil Bringer would remain but think Devil Trigger where it appears behind Nero without changing him; this time the Devil Bringer summons a weapon to use). That way, you have Set A and Set B still applying to Triangle and Circle weapons, but this time instead of foot weapons, you have Nero's Devil Bringer summoning the relevant weapon to use in conjunction with the Triangle-based weapon.
With R2 taken up by Exceed, how do you incorporate dodging techniques? R1 + X + left analog stick like before, but this time customised so that you do more than just roll out of the way. As for Royal Guard-type techniques, the Devil Bringer could essentially function as the parry/counter weapon. Push the left stick in the direction of the enemy attack and Nero would raise the Devil Bringer. Time correctly and Nero will raise the Devil Bringer and pull off a powerful counter with it. Simples.
What about the Devil Trigger? Nero's Devil Trigger in Devil May Cry 4 used Yamato in conjunction with Nero's Red Queen. The same idea can apply here with every attack being followed up by the Devil Trigger's attack via the ethereal strikes. Not too dissimilar to Bayonetta's Wicked Weave attacks but this time, constant whilst in Devil Trigger mode.
So how would Nero's control setup look now?
Left Analog Stick: Movement, different directions affect different combos & Royal Guard abilities
L1: Devil Trigger
L2: Switch between Set A (consists of two weapons; one for hands and one for Devil Bringer) and Set B (same again)
R1: Lock on
R2: Exceed
Triangle: Melee attacks
Circle: Devil Bringer
Square: Shooting
X: Jumping/Dodging when in conjunction with the left stick and R1
You're hardly shifting anything around with Nero because he didn't have the baggage of the style system. You're just adding in weapon switching and changing the Devil Bringer in to a fully customizable weapon set in itself.
Closing:
This is essentially my idea of how you can turn Devil May Cry 5 in to a relevant and competitive title. You're basically doing away with the styles and replacing certain buttons with more user-friendly alternatives that still have the impact of styles. Bayonetta's controls are simple but with practice (like with all games of this sort) can become complicated with a satisfying result, depending on the combo. Everything is possible in Bayonetta, with more combos and mechanics available to you than any given Devil May Cry game, all without any needless changing between styles. Why make it difficult when you don't need to?
Enemies also need to be given a makeover. No more punching bags. Give them the ability to break out of combos and being able to counter if you're not on your toes. This way there's a bit more diversity in any given battle.
In terms of production values and general look, Devil May Cry 4 was great. It was merely the combat that needed changing as it was too unbalanced. It was either awkward and too complicated or it was too simple with a lack of depth. In my honest opinion, the above is how it SHOULD be.
So by all means post your impressions and thoughts and hopefully we get together some nice ideas on how Devil May Cry 5 can kick start the series again.
After putting a good 16/17 hours in to Bayonetta so far, it dawned on me: How will Devil May Cry 5 cope with such a near-flawless Stylish Action title? Bayonetta pushes the boundaries where depth and possibilities are concerned, something only Devil May Cry could do for many years until the roadblock that was Devil May Cry 4.
Bayonetta enables you to perform a ridiculous amount of techniques and abilities that ALL shape and affect a fight. There are different methods in defence play and many methods in your offensive play. The manner in which you can string them together and go from A to B without having to pause alleviates any fears that could have easily stemmed from such faith in the title. It's very easy to glitch the system so-to-speak, in that you can easily create a game that can break from the slightest inconsistency in a combat string (horrendous pausing between any desired chain). Yet, Platinum Games nailed a solid, intuitive and progressive system that has little room for breaks and pauses. It evolves and your play evolves with it. For such a near-perfect system, it can easily pave the way for a new generation of Action games. Devil May Cry being the closest competitor.
While Devil May Cry 4 was a good Action game, it lacked the spark and efficiency of Devil May Cry 3, and also failed to take advantage of the path Devil May Cry 3 set. Fans were looking for an evolution for the next generation, not a minor progression. Nero's lack of depth hurt the game deeply and went against the very foundation that Devil May Cry 3 established ('unless it's deep, don't bother'). Unfortunately, the game was built in favor of Nero, with enemies and bosses catering to Nero's style. Where Dante is concerned, you have an out-of-place character with a horribly unbalanced combat engine. Style-changing was a nice idea but horrendously convoluted in how you switch between the styles. It's very hard to get a consistent flow with Trickster to dodge an enemy (or Royal Guard to block an attack), backed by a Gunslinger combo to floor an enemy, to a Sword Master combo to finish the enemy off.
Yet, such a combo is minor in a game like Bayonetta where you can dodge and parry at any time with a single press of a button or a movement of the left stick, perform a combination of Gun Slinger and Sword Master moves (depending on your weapon of choice, further backed by the weapon switching) and even finish off with a flashy special attack (known as a Wicked Weave in Bayonetta, or if possible, a Torture Attack). All without having to constantly press additional buttons on top of the obvious Square/Triangle/Circle (with the exception of R2 but it's comfortably accessible).
THAT is an easy, comfortable and accessible control scheme. It's not marred by unnecessary switching between the D-Pad buttons and the main face buttons for combat, with efficient pressing requiring the use of unfathomable timing and amount of hands that you do not possess. But I digress; the underlining issue is that Devil May Cry 4's combat can be accessible with Nero but horribly unbalanced with Dante, despite the various exploitations and mechanics you can apply to his moveset (that require very little combo energy).
So how do we shift it all around with Devil May Cry 5?...
Get rid of Styles altogether!:
What? Are you crazy? Yes and no.
As I said above, Devil May Cry 4 was unbalanced in many ways and lacked any real intuition, further marred by the inability of the enemies to actually give you grief and a style system that - whilst somewhat evolutionary - was broken due to the poorly implemented controls.
For Devil May Cry 5 to actually make it easier to pull off the variety of styles, implementing a new system that removes the need to have to change between styles and to actually enable you to pull them off on the go in any possible combo, without having to press any silly D-Pad buttons would be a good start.
For that, you look to Bayonetta.
Bayonetta's system involves the following (noting the important buttons):
Left Analog Stick: Movement, different directions affect different combos & Parry/Counter
L2: Switch between Set A (consists of two weapons; one for hands and one for feet) and Set B (same again)
R2: Dodge (holding R2 as well as accompanying it with Circle or Triangle can enable some flashy offensive attacks but they're irrelevant)
Triangle: Melee attacks (hands)
Circle: Melee attacks (feet)
Square: Basic shooting
X: Jump; can also be applied for jump cancelling and even hurting an enemy in the process.
That is all that's required in Bayonetta where basics are concerned. Now let's look at Devil May Cry 4:
Left Analog Stick: Movement, different directions affect different combos
L1: Devil Trigger
L2: Switch between guns
R2: Switch between melee weapons
Triangle: Melee attacks
Circle: Style abilities
Square: Shooting
X: Jumping
D-Pad Up: Style
D-Pad Left: Style
D-Pad Right: Style
D-Pad Down: Style
As you can see, you have two somewhat different control set ups. One enables you to do everything and more that the other should do, whereas the said 'other' makes it a chore to effectively do anything consistently in the way you WANT it.
How do you remedy this? Remove Styles altogether and opt for a similar system to what Bayonetta incorporates. Narrow it down and remove the needless buttons.
You can essentially copy and paste the Bayonetta control scheme in to Devil May Cry for maximum effect. L1 would still work for Devil Trigger (as opposed to taunting as it is in Bayonetta) and you can replace individual weapons with weapon sets. Now that brings me to the next part.
How do you incorporate hand and foot weapons without making it look silly? No, you don't give Dante or Nero guns on their feet. However, you can apply special foot weapons. For example, you could split Beowulf in to hand and foot weapons. Apply them both in the menu and boom, you have the full shebang for maximum effect. Or, you can use the Beowulf grieves on your foot and equip Rebellion on your hands. The trick is coming up with appropriate foot weapons aside from the obvious grieves (like you get with Ifrit, Beowulf or Gilgamesh).
This way you can alternate between hand and foot combos with ease and perform powerful attacks. You could even choose to equip Ebony & Ivory as prominent hand weapons and use Triangle to perform powerful attacks and combos; even relative to what you see in the film Equilibrium or how Dante and Nero took on eachother with their guns in the main opening scene of Devil May Cry 4. If you want to switch to a sword, switch to Set B and perform Rebellion attacks in with your gun attacks. Giving the gun combat a Gun-Kata-esque feel (like in Equilibrium) could make the gun combat a lot more exciting. Again, the trick is coming up with appropriate firearms.
That's essentially cracking Sword Master and Gunslinger in one easy swoop without any need for style changing. You've essentially got the styles there and as opposed to the ideas of styles, they're replaced with weapons with each weapon having a sort of style locking in. Bayonetta can pretty much do Gunslinger and more or Sword Master and more depending on the weapon setup.
As for Trickster and Royal Guard, again, L2 would be the only weapon-switching function with two different sets of weapons (for four weapons in total), leaving R2 open. Different techniques can be pulled off with R2 for a Trickster-themed move set. R1 and R2 together could cause Dante to teleport to and from an enemy (somewhat like his Trickster ability previously that enabled this) or pressing R2 on its own could lead to simple dodging or running up and from walls for added agility. Pretty simple.
With Royal Guard, possibly incorporate the left stick as you would with the Moon of Maha-Kalaa in Bayonetta. This accessory lets you parry and even counter enemy attacks by pushing the left stick in the direction of the enemy at the right time. With Just Release, a simple R1 and quick push of the left stick could unleash the Just Release move once your bar is at full (for maximum damage).
Oh and with Nero coming up, how do you make Dante applicable to Nero? Nero can grab enemies from afar to carry on combos with enemies further away. Bayonetta has a whip weapon called Kulshedra which can also work like the Devil Bringer which grabs enemies and pulls them to you. Do you give Dante a more appropriate whip-like weapon? Another thing to consider. Might give it a Castlevania vibe but it's something that can apply unless you have abilities that close the distance quicker, rather than running after the next enemy. The teleportation move I mentioned above regarding Trickster might solve that solution as it plagued Dante in Devil May Cry 4.
Lastly, what about Dante's Devil Trigger? In Devil May Cry 4, his Devil Trigger enabled for an extension to some combos so that can still remain here. More power and bigger extensions and razmatazz to already-existing combos. No need to proper shake it up.
Again, all with a simpler control scheme that can allow you to put on the offensive right away without having to shift styles. Is it a straight rip from Bayonetta? Pretty much but you can also thank Devil May Cry (okay, Hideki Kamiya did that too) for many of the influences in Bayonetta. It's about taking what works from other games and molding them in to something that works for a new game. Influences help evolve games.
The final control setup:
Left Analog Stick: Movement, different directions affect different combos & Royal Guard abilities
L1: Devil Trigger
L2: Switch between Set A (consists of two weapons; one for hands and one for feet) and Set B (same again)
R1: Lock on
R2: Trickster abilities
Triangle: Melee attacks (hands)
Circle: Melee attacks (feet)
Square: Basic shooting
X: Jump; can also be applied for jump cancelling and even hurting an enemy in the process.
Next stop:
Nero:
What do we do to Nero? He has the Devil Bringer which utilized the Circle button. With his different combat style (including Revs on L2 with the Red Queen), a different control system may be in order. However, we also need Nero to be more diverse in his weapon set up.
Let's look at his current control setup (as of Devil May Cry 4):
Left Analog Stick: Movement, different directions affect different combos
L1: Devil Trigger
L2: Exceed
Triangle: Melee attacks
Circle: Devil Bringer
Square: Shooting
X: Jumping
That is essentially Nero's setup in a nutshell. A lot more basic. How to remedy this? Give the Devil Bringer the ability to function as a regular melee weapon and relegate the special finishers to QTE sequences when an enemy is weak or when your Devil Trigger bar is full.
With R2 being open, change it around with L2 and use it as another Set A/Set B button. R2 would then be Exceed which, if done right, can be a system that would apply to many of Nero's weapons. For example, the Devil Bringer may function as a normal 'boxing glove' per se but with Exceed timed correctly, the punches may become a lot more ethereal and bigger (phantom punching basically).
What weapons to give Nero? Yamato would be nice for starters. However, weapons on his feet would also be suitable unless Nero was now able to morph his Devil Bringer in to a variety of different demonic weapons (basic Devil Bringer would remain but think Devil Trigger where it appears behind Nero without changing him; this time the Devil Bringer summons a weapon to use). That way, you have Set A and Set B still applying to Triangle and Circle weapons, but this time instead of foot weapons, you have Nero's Devil Bringer summoning the relevant weapon to use in conjunction with the Triangle-based weapon.
With R2 taken up by Exceed, how do you incorporate dodging techniques? R1 + X + left analog stick like before, but this time customised so that you do more than just roll out of the way. As for Royal Guard-type techniques, the Devil Bringer could essentially function as the parry/counter weapon. Push the left stick in the direction of the enemy attack and Nero would raise the Devil Bringer. Time correctly and Nero will raise the Devil Bringer and pull off a powerful counter with it. Simples.
What about the Devil Trigger? Nero's Devil Trigger in Devil May Cry 4 used Yamato in conjunction with Nero's Red Queen. The same idea can apply here with every attack being followed up by the Devil Trigger's attack via the ethereal strikes. Not too dissimilar to Bayonetta's Wicked Weave attacks but this time, constant whilst in Devil Trigger mode.
So how would Nero's control setup look now?
Left Analog Stick: Movement, different directions affect different combos & Royal Guard abilities
L1: Devil Trigger
L2: Switch between Set A (consists of two weapons; one for hands and one for Devil Bringer) and Set B (same again)
R1: Lock on
R2: Exceed
Triangle: Melee attacks
Circle: Devil Bringer
Square: Shooting
X: Jumping/Dodging when in conjunction with the left stick and R1
You're hardly shifting anything around with Nero because he didn't have the baggage of the style system. You're just adding in weapon switching and changing the Devil Bringer in to a fully customizable weapon set in itself.
Closing:
This is essentially my idea of how you can turn Devil May Cry 5 in to a relevant and competitive title. You're basically doing away with the styles and replacing certain buttons with more user-friendly alternatives that still have the impact of styles. Bayonetta's controls are simple but with practice (like with all games of this sort) can become complicated with a satisfying result, depending on the combo. Everything is possible in Bayonetta, with more combos and mechanics available to you than any given Devil May Cry game, all without any needless changing between styles. Why make it difficult when you don't need to?
Enemies also need to be given a makeover. No more punching bags. Give them the ability to break out of combos and being able to counter if you're not on your toes. This way there's a bit more diversity in any given battle.
In terms of production values and general look, Devil May Cry 4 was great. It was merely the combat that needed changing as it was too unbalanced. It was either awkward and too complicated or it was too simple with a lack of depth. In my honest opinion, the above is how it SHOULD be.
So by all means post your impressions and thoughts and hopefully we get together some nice ideas on how Devil May Cry 5 can kick start the series again.