Muslim actors in UK.......

[Nabil Mishima]

Hmmm...a bit random this thread yeah but I really need to address this.

My big question is why do muslim actors in the UK get used? I mean nearly 100% of the time they get used for some program drama that HAS to revolve around some bomb attack or something else. OK fair enough you have people like Nina Wadia (I think thats how you spell it?) who is well known who doesnt get used......

I really hope you nice folks can clear my mind on this.

[thezombiemessia]

Same reason as British men play the bad guy in American films, black people get used as the gangster characters, and women are either sexy and smart, or ugly soccer mums...

Stereotypes.

It is easier for a Muslim actor to get a job going by a stereotype.

Britain isnt using them, they are letting themselves be used

All an actor has to do is say no.

[Nabil Mishima]

Thats exactly my point.....lets use an example here, you know that Asian family in Eastenders? Masood or something? They arent letting themselves be used anyway. Well all I can say about Muslim actors are that they so bloody stupid and Im ashamed to be Muslim........

I hate converts as well. Why? Because of some personal things that have happened.

Converting to Islam should be made illegal in UK and anywhere else in the world......while Im on the subject might as well throw that in there.

[The Possessed]

With all due respect at the risk of being unpopular.

As TZM said each country has different traditional stereotypes and to get paid for acting that out is in no way disgraceful. To be in a religion of any form is to respect your God, not every single one of your own kind. My own beliefs in God are that he knows what is in our hearts and if something is just a joke in good humour then my own God woluld respect that, it does not show that I am being mallicious to others.

As for the Islam and converting thing, firstly not the most ideal thing to bring to debate on a forum. Im not following news on that at all as I refuse to follow the media for anything as I believe the exatraggerations pretty much depress the whole world. Anyway back on to what I was going to say, the Islam conversion thing really is not the UKs problem, we have our own country to worry about. Traditionally the UK has been Christian for many milleniums anyway. We accept religions and people from all over the world which is fair enough, but those that come shouldnt be telling us what our ideals should be in my opinion. I know Ill upset many by posting this, but at the same time I believe most people of British origin and traditions believe the same thing. This is our own country with our own problems. Nothing wound me up more than Blairs attitude of being George Bushs sheep, if youre going to help fair enough, but do it with the right intentions, not to suck up to someone else. It takes away our nations individuality.

[Ryu Kazama]

Credit crunch. We need the money! That and its a step in the right direction of an acting career. Sure it might be seen as being used but the individual knows the score, he read the script etc. If he does a good job, hell be noticed. Given some more roles, perhaps something else that interests him other than the stereotype role. You have to start somewhere and progress from it and make some contacts.

Let those who want to convert convert. Id never be ashamed of being a Muslim. I only pity the foo who does something a little too silly.

[thezombiemessia]

firstly not the most ideal thing to bring to debate on a forum.

Agreed, hence why I didnt reply immdeiately.

Traditionally the UK has been Christian for many milleniums anyway.

Not true. In the UK, Christianity isnt even 2 Millenia.

We accept religions and people from all over the world which is fair enough, but those that come shouldnt be telling us what our ideals should be in my opinion.

And your opinion is shared by many. If somebody wants to practice their religion, fine, but if they want to force it upon me (any religion, Christianity, Buddhism, whatever), they need to rethink their actions.

It takes away our nations individuality.

Agreed. Though honestly we lost most of our individuality when we were invaded by France, and when we lost our empire.

[Nabil Mishima]

Someone lock the thread, I didnt mean for this to happen.......

I hope this doesnt end our friendships guys. I should stated that this was a touchy subject that I needed people to talk to.

[thezombiemessia]

Mean for what to happen Nabil? Nothing bad has happened, just people expressing opinions.

Were all aware that this is a touchy subject, and Im pretty sure we can all handle it like adults...no reason to lock the thread IMO.

[Nabil Mishima]

What Im worried about is if I hurt Ryu Kazamas feelings. Well you see tzm, a tutor literally told me to ******* at a xmas party, and now last year the tutor asked me to leave 3 times! Thank you for your understanding. I guess the reason I post these subjects on these boards is to educate myself really. Because I feel like an idiot.

language, please. Ten

[thezombiemessia]

Why did the teacher say/do that? What did you ask them?

If a tutor/teacher cannot be adult enough to answer a question in a calm manner, then they need to rethink their career choice.

[Triple Seven]

What Im worried about is if I hurt Ryu Kazamas feelings. Well you see tzm, a tutor literally told me to **** at a xmas party, and now last year the tutor asked me to leave 3 times! Thank you for your understanding. I guess the reason I post these subjects on these boards is to educate myself really. Because I feel like an idiot.

As far as I can tell you havent done anything wrong in and with this topic. Was it a public party?

[Madam:I]

My only two pence to this topic are collectively this: if you really want to see something where Muslims [or any minority for that matter, to use a diplomatically clich‚d term] arent being stereotyped or used, then youll have to move away from anything media-related and see things with your own eyes. Of course, however, contemporary society makes such a thing extremely difficult. Without going into some boring cultural postmodern debate, succinctly put the media is a pollutant. It is everywhere we are and in everything we touch, whether we like it or not and does damage to our perceptions by distorting and misrepresenting reality. But we have no choice but to live with and depend on it in order to survive societally; nonetheless, how much we take in of it depends on individual acceptance.

[Tenebra]

Nothing wrong with this topic at all, Im actually pretty pleased seeing how tactfully you guys are discussing.

[Nabil Mishima]

@ 777 it was at college.

So yeah it can screw your mind up pretty bad you know......

[Tenebra]

Sorry Nabil, Im failing to see what part religion plays in the story with the old tutor :dead:

Unfortunately were all pretty much prone to meet pretty unpleasant characters throughout our lives (Ive come across more than a few already).

[Nabil Mishima]

Sorry Nabil, Im failing to see what part religion plays in the story with the old tutor :dead:

Unfortunately were all pretty much prone to meet pretty unpleasant characters throughout our lives (Ive come across more than a few already).

Its ok, she thought that because Im muslim, I didnt need to go to the Xmas party bash at the end of the year.

She even said go home and smiled while she did it.

[Ryu Kazama]

Well, depends on the type of Muslim but most will tell you its not something you should be taking part in. So many ways to view to it. Obviously the more extreme the views get (destroy their time with family etc) the worse and more against it actually ends up being to Muslims too (eg. terrorism isnt the way of Muslims). For me personally, I dont really take part in Christmas. As a kid in school youre kind of edged to go that way but now I just dont really bother. I let them have their fun and I just do my own thing at home. Either way were all still hanging out with family in the end. I dont dish out presents nor do I expect anyone to give me presents for its not something I take part in. Im not gonna spoil it for those that do celebrate it either.

I can see where this thread will go. Basically there are many ways to interpret the path a Muslim should take. Some just make sense, some you wont understand until certain events in your life actually happen. Just do the basics first and the rest follows slowly. I do my fair share of things not really permitted in the religion (watching horror movies, playing distateful games etc) but those to me dont really influence me in a negative way (I think! haha!). Stuff like alcohol, drugs and what have you I stay away from though. Except for Paracetomal, the cure to everything (actually, for Asians Lucozade tends to be the cure for everything).

Anyway, do your own research as well on things Muslims should or shouldnt do. Different people will tell you different things. Heck, Ill guarantee you at least one Muslim will totally disagree with nearly everything I said and bash me for being a terrible example of a Muslim. Well, at least I try the basics like sticking to halal foods, prayer etc.

[cewolf]

ahhhhhhhhhh ... this is going to be along thread ...
the guys who know me know that i tend to have long posts in such topics ... so please be patient while you read through it

ok ..... for the main topic .. i totally agree with Nabil Mishima ... why on earth would Muslims actors agree to do parts that
blacken the image of Islam and Arabs ... this is not an simple thing , it has a very big impact more than any of you can imagine
i am very interested in this topic The distortion of Islam image in western media to a degree that i have quit my job as a civil engineer
and moved toward computer grafix in hope that i will use my talent to do something about that ...

people , this is not a joke , and it is not just stereotype thing , it is way bigger , even the worst terrorists in the REAL world are nothing like the
REEL terrorist in the movies , the media destroy the image of isalm really bad to a degree that almost nothing you see is true AND I KNOW WHAT I AM SAYING

few months a go a young muslim student from Qatar was beaten to death in UK in a hate crime .... media played a huge role in portraying Muslims as villeins and terrorists that 70% of students in some university in the US ( forgot which one ) thinks that Islam and terrorism are related , and the researcher who did the study found that the remaining 30% who did not relate Islam to terrorism were either Muslims or Arabs !!!!!

in order not to make this topic long i would recommend a book by Jack Shaheen Reel Bad Arabs, who hollywood vilifies a people
the writer spent 20 years in watching every movie made in America from the year 1900 up to 2000 that talked about arab or isalm ... and talked about every
movie of them in his book
he divided the movies into 3 categories
1- best list :movies that portrayed Arabs as good people
2-recommended :movies that portrayed Arabs as Normal people
3-worst list : movies that portrayed Arabs as villeins and bad people

the best list contained 12 movies ONLY
the recommended contined 51 movies .
the worst list contained over 900 movie

does this look normal ...or something is severely wrong ??
i have the book , actually it is in my hand right now while i am writing this post ... i have read most of the book ( i could not continue it because it was too painful )
even the best and recommended lists dont represent Arab or Islam correctly !!!
in other words ... after 100 years of movies in USA you will end with bad and false image of islam and arab.... this has a huge impact over the world and how the west deal with 1/3 of the world ... politics are using that image in their agenda .... i will not to go in more details , but you should read the book
http://www.amazon.com/Reel-Bad-Arabs-Hollywood-Vilifies/dp/1566563887/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227615709&sr=8-1

the image is so bad that some people are afraid to portrait Arabs and Islam in a correct way ...
jack shaheen said in his book that he asked a Hollywood producer{ why he and his co-workers never projected in comedies and drama Arabs and Arab Americans as regular folk. To my astonishment , he confided ,Jack, some of us are reluctant to present good Arabs , even good Arab Americans in our movies , because we will be labeled pro-Arab.}

people , this is not a joke , for all of you who are reading this -epically the young of you - , when it come to Islam DONT YOU EVER BELIEVE WHAT YOU SEE IN THE MOVIES ( AND SOME TIMES EVEN THE NEWS ) MORE THAN 90% OF WHAT IN THE MOVIES ARE FALSE ..

Nabil Mishima
I guess the reason I post these subjects on these boards is to educate myself really. Because I feel like an idiot.
dont say that , you are not an idiot , dont think low of your self , it is ok to admit that we dont know , this is the first steps of learning , but dont call your self an idiot ... feel free to ask any thing you want , if we know we will answer , if not , we will ask who knows .. ;)

Ryu Kazama

i would like to commit about what you said , sadly some muslims disagree with each other based on what they have been used to, not based on what God wants , they refer their opinions to any thing but to what God wants ( i.e orders of the holy Quran and the prophet teachings ) , and i have seen a lot of that when i traveled around , it was so sad that some times you have a better laugh ...
I do my fair share of things not really permitted in the religion (watching horror movies, playing distateful games etc)
well , it depends of what you are watching and playing , i watch a lot of movies and play games , but if it contains things that contradict completely with my faith , i dont watch or play ...onimusha is one of the best games i played , but there are many things contradict with the fundamental of my faith , so i preferred to stay a way , it depends on the content ...
Anyway, do your own research as well on things Muslims should or shouldnt do. Different people will tell you different things
when you do your research , do it in the right places , it is not people who decide what a Muslim should or should not do , when some one say that a Muslim
should/shouldnt do so and so , it has to be backed up with a proof from the holy Quran or the prophet says .


ok , i will close now , this getting too long

see ya

zico out

[cewolf]

hay ... i have noticed something ...
my rank is aadvanced member :lol: when did this happen
yaaaay

zico out

[thezombiemessia]

The whole of the first part of your rant clearly backs up the it is the media playing on stereotypes argument, even if you dont want to admit it.

Islam is not the only thing that is attacked in the Media.

Look at the Irish for example...there are several sterotypes of the Irish:

1. Drunk
2. Drunk and Abusive
3. Either Catholic or Protestant, and willing to kill the opposite.

The media constantly plays on these stereotypes. I guarantee if you held a poll/survey on it, people would consider many Irish people to fit at least 1 of these stereotypes...despite the fact that many of us here at least know it not to be true.

How about the stereotype of a Christian?

1. Believes that you will go to hell unless you worship Christ/God
2. Believes that if you are Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual, you are destined for Hell
3. Preaches the Truth to everyone, in an attempt to convert them
4. There are hundreds of other steretypes.

As I am sure you are aware, not every Christian is like any of the stereotypes that the media portrays.

I can list many hundreds of other stereotypes that the Media constantly plays on, even in serious things such as the news...Emo, Chav, Hoodie...what do these 3 words conjure up in your mind?

Terrorism is associated with more than just Islam...but due to the past 8 years, the majority of people place them together. Before that, the irish were seen as Terrorists because of the IRA bombings around the world.

Etc, etc, etc...

[Member_of_STARS]

One of the greatest virtue of a man has always been the ability to suck it up. At least thats the ability that comes into play when logic and common sense have failed. When these three fail and you have an ignorant person clinging to those things that seemingly give their life value and meaning, youll encounter a messload of problems.

So really, is this topic about people complaining about stereotypes being used in modern capitalistic and materialistic world as a tool to gain profit? Or are we talking about ignorant idiots? Because the first is fine. A well spoken and intellectual b!tchslap will take care of the second option.

Cant all be hardas5es in this life, but dont let someone inferior to you try to tramp you down just so they could pat their ego.

[cewolf]

TZM :
i did not mean that the media only make a stereotype image of the Muslims only ..as you said , the Irish also the black people
Indians and so on but when it come to Islam it is the worse ever .... almost thee is nothing true when it come to Islam and Arabs , facts are changed in a very twisted ways , not only in the movies ... not only in the media ... even in schools and universities , some of our family members who live in the west tells us how
much false information are given in some schools and universities , some countries in Europe like France started to teach Islamic history based on books used in Islamic counties schools to try to counter the effect of the bad stereotype image been accumulated through out the years ..


but due to the past 8 years, the majority of people place them together
actually , it has been for a very very loooong a go , the media been portraying us as villeins and terrorist since the silent movies , not kidding , jack shaheen talked about some movies from the late 1800s which portrayed us as villeins and beasts and even before movies , literature goes loooong way a go in destroying the image of Islam and Arabs, i will not say how much in the past it goes , since i dont have references to back it up with

i know and read about many western people who were very shocked when they visited some Islamic countries and found out that reality is waaaaaaaaaaay different from what they knew all their lives

any how .... i really advice you to check Jack book , it will give you some idea about how bad the image is

see yaaaa guys


zico out

[Nabil Mishima]

Oh man.....all I made this thread for was just to ask why Muslim actors are supposedly used in UK which TZM stated isnt true in some cases. Thanks bud. But to turn this into a long debate wasnt my intention.

[The Possessed]

How people or character types are portrayed in a movie is not a big deal. It is the ignorance of people that are problematic, the individuals with such simple closed minds that they will believe anything you tell or show them.

[The Spirit]

It is very simple to understand

01. Islam is one of the fastest growing religions in Europe, if all of the community becomes Muslims there will be no other Religion left. Thats where
the greatest minds of the world sit all together & make a plot to manipulate there community, they try to put the terror inside you, they tell you that
Muslims are all terrorists, they beat up there wife & women & they are extremists. Herers a philosphy of the politics which some of you might have heard and some might have not tell the lie so many times that it should be taken as truth

02. If a women gets abused or raped in some country, there is a small headline in the newspaper, if someone gets abused in the Muslim community its
the front cover of the newspaper with a bold headliens & its not the person who is blamed, its the religion who is blamed Islam. What does it show us?
If the headline is small that means there things are normal and take place quiet frequent thats the reason it didnt make it to the front title.

03. If we have so many restrictions for women in our religion, howcome the the percentage of the women converting into Islam is more than the Men?

04. Howmany of you know that the world trade centre was a inside job? If you know its an inside job then you might know as well that its a political propoganda against Muslims.


Now last but not the least, and its totally my opinion, if everyone of us abides by there own religion doesnt matter if its christianity,Muslim etc, there wont be any war at all. There is no such book & no such religion that tells the people to kill the other people who have different religions. As a sidenote even Islam says about leaving the other people in there own beliefes. I think you get the point.

[The Possessed]

Id suggest people stop caring about the media as much because you cant change it and shock factor is how the papers make their money. This is a coroprate world afterall. Its up to the individual to decide whether to believe it fully or to laugh at it, thats their problem. As for the World Trade Centre, countless people could claim to know the truth on that story, but with only a few exceptions it is mostly just an opinion. The stronger opinions tend to be put in place because one obsesses on something to attach it to.

Id just like to add you can have a religion if you like, Im a loose attachment to Christianity but you dont have to. You can still have a good degree of discipline and moral values put into you from a young age that makes you a respectable citizen. Thats all down to parenting, not religion. I know many good people who dont follow traditional religions of any type and they are no worse a person.

[The Spirit]

Thats your opinion The Possessed & thats the problem, many people dont think the same way as you do, rather than doing there own research on certain
aspects they just tend to listen to the TV,News & Plolitics, in short they make the others succeed in there plan and create problems for the one that are innocent.

[The Possessed]

In the end of the day its impossible to change a person who does not want to change. Even without media, that person would remain the same and be influenced by other factors.

Before we had newspapers and television people would tear each other apart if they were from an unfamiliar race without thought.

[Member_of_STARS]

01. Islam is one of the fastest growing religions in Europe, if all of the community becomes Muslims there will be no other Religion left. Thats where
the greatest minds of the world sit all together & make a plot to manipulate there community, they try to put the terror inside you, they tell you that
Muslims are all terrorists, they beat up there wife & women & they are extremists. Herers a philosphy of the politics which some of you might have heard and some might have not tell the lie so many times that it should be taken as truth

No its not. Youre confusing migration (both legal and illegal) with conversion. It may be true that the muslim population in Europe is climbing, but its only because of muslim migration from East and South to West and North. Fact is, to atheists, both are very unpopular religions and rightfully so. And whereas Christianity is more and more associated with a dumb redneck from Alabama, a Muslim is associated with terrorism.

Since you like conspiracy theories so much, Im going to debunk this one before its even born. Its in our nature to make a problem personal by attaching an emotion to it. Memories, aswell as pictures, are stored in our minds in form of emotions.

The Western politics you seem to have a strong dislike for, are using the same kind of manipulative tactics that Middle-Eastern religious leaders are using. And while materialistic view on world is being turned against us in the form of reason and logic, religious leaders simply use other tactics, but in the end, its all the same. So how can you look at West and point your fingers when its the whole world that lives by these simple rules?

Its all a testament to our humanity and the lack of divinity. Were all the same, predictable as machines yet complex as universe.

02. If a women gets abused or raped in some country, there is a small headline in the newspaper, if someone gets abused in the Muslim community its
the front cover of the newspaper with a bold headliens & its not the person who is blamed, its the religion who is blamed Islam. What does it show us?
If the headline is small that means there things are normal and take place quiet frequent thats the reason it didnt make it to the front title.

As a matter of fact, we know our women may get abused. They know where to get help and if charges are filed, the offender will get a pretty heavy boot up his arse. If a woman is mistreated in Middle-East, in a lot of cases, it may be ignored due to cultural and religious traditions. Fact of the matter is, women ARE more free in the West, than they are in the East. You dont need to argue that. I can bring rain on your parade in form of statistics and pictures provided by the mighty God Google.com. The very notion of arguing over female rights and comparing East to West is ridiculous.

03. If we have so many restrictions for women in our religion, howcome the the percentage of the women converting into Islam is more than the Men?

Id like to see those statistics first. And remember, provide actual conversion statistics of an atheits, christian or other changing her religion to islam. Right now, considering how the world develops, Im pretty sure that its moving the other way around, people are tired of religious BS and are turning into either atheists or agnostics.

The Earth was blue, but there was no God.

04. Howmany of you know that the world trade centre was a inside job? If you know its an inside job then you might know as well that its a political propoganda against Muslims.

Those of us that followed public media have known of these conspiracy theories since day one. Youre trying to show it as a fact, which it isnt. The FACT is, you dont know what happened and the most likely explanation to it all was the one released to public. The FACT is, more than 3000 people died. Thats enough for me. You dont have a single shred of evidence to back your claim up and you leave an impression of a juvenile kid with too many Clancy books.

Now last but not the least, and its totally my opinion, if everyone of us abides by there own religion doesnt matter if its christianity,Muslim etc, there wont be any war at all. There is no such book & no such religion that tells the people to kill the other people who have different religions. As a sidenote even Islam says about leaving the other people in there own beliefes. I think you get the point.

Wrong. Traditional religion takes away our sense of responsibility and makes us easier to manipulate by those with will. And since violence, greed, hatred are just as much coded into our very genes as love, joy and selflessness, religion is never going to be the answer to world peace.

[The Spirit]

01. Islam is one of the fastest growing religions in Europe, if all of the community becomes Muslims there will be no other Religion left. Thats where
the greatest minds of the world sit all together & make a plot to manipulate there community, they try to put the terror inside you, they tell you that
Muslims are all terrorists, they beat up there wife & women & they are extremists. Herers a philosphy of the politics which some of you might have heard and some might have not tell the lie so many times that it should be taken as truth

01. No its not. Youre confusing migration (both legal and illegal) with conversion. It may be true that the muslim population in Europe is climbing, but its only because of muslim migration from East and South to West and North. Fact is, to atheists, both are very unpopular religions and rightfully so. And whereas Christianity is more and more associated with a dumb redneck from Alabama, a Muslim is associated with terrorism.

Since you like conspiracy theories so much, Im going to debunk this one before its even born. Its in our nature to make a problem personal by attaching an emotion to it. Memories, aswell as pictures, are stored in our minds in form of emotions.

The Western politics you seem to have a strong dislike for, are using the same kind of manipulative tactics that Middle-Eastern religious leaders are using. And while materialistic view on world is being turned against us in the form of reason and logic, religious leaders simply use other tactics, but in the end, its all the same. So how can you look at West and point your fingers when its the whole world that lives by these simple rules?

Its all a testament to our humanity and the lack of divinity. Were all the same, predictable as machines yet complex as universe.

02. If a women gets abused or raped in some country, there is a small headline in the newspaper, if someone gets abused in the Muslim community its
the front cover of the newspaper with a bold headliens & its not the person who is blamed, its the religion who is blamed Islam. What does it show us?
If the headline is small that means there things are normal and take place quiet frequent thats the reason it didnt make it to the front title.

02. As a matter of fact, we know our women may get abused. They know where to get help and if charges are filed, the offender will get a pretty heavy boot up his arse. If a woman is mistreated in Middle-East, in a lot of cases, it may be ignored due to cultural and religious traditions. Fact of the matter is, women ARE more free in the West, than they are in the East. You dont need to argue that. I can bring rain on your parade in form of statistics and pictures provided by the mighty God Google.com. The very notion of arguing over female rights and comparing East to West is ridiculous.

03. If we have so many restrictions for women in our religion, howcome the the percentage of the women converting into Islam is more than the Men?

03. Id like to see those statistics first. And remember, provide actual conversion statistics of an atheits, christian or other changing her religion to islam. Right now, considering how the world develops, Im pretty sure that its moving the other way around, people are tired of religious BS and are turning into either atheists or agnostics.

The Earth was blue, but there was no God.

04. Howmany of you know that the world trade centre was a inside job? If you know its an inside job then you might know as well that its a political propoganda against Muslims.

04. Those of us that followed public media have known of these conspiracy theories since day one. Youre trying to show it as a fact, which it isnt. The FACT is, you dont know what happened and the most likely explanation to it all was the one released to public. The FACT is, more than 3000 people died. Thats enough for me. You dont have a single shred of evidence to back your claim up and you leave an impression of a juvenile kid with too many Clancy books.

Now last but not the least, and its totally my opinion, if everyone of us abides by there own religion doesnt matter if its christianity,Muslim etc, there wont be any war at all. There is no such book & no such religion that tells the people to kill the other people who have different religions. As a sidenote even Islam says about leaving the other people in there own beliefes. I think you get the point.

05. Wrong. Traditional religion takes away our sense of responsibility and makes us easier to manipulate by those with will. And since violence, greed, hatred are just as much coded into our very genes as love, joy and selflessness, religion is never going to be the answer to world peace.

Here Ive numbered your opinions so itll be easy for you to follow

01. I am not talking about immigrants or confusing anything, I am talking about the people who are non-muslim and are converting into Islam
Check the link below
http://rupeenews.com/2008/07/21/growing-muslims-in-europe-50000-brits-convert-every-year/

02. First of all if you dont feel any sort of shame by saying we know our women get abused? You should or anyoneselse saying that. You can bring all the rain you want, but a few pictures is not going to change the fact that abusement and rapes of women are quite high outside Muslim community, Muslim community have a very low rate of rape and abusing women all over the world, because of very strict punishments, hence everybody fears the punishment
and thinks twice before doing it, there are black sheeps all over the world, but youve to look at the majority & its less than any other religion.
You can use your almighty God Google on this one & if you do manage to share some information make sure its comparising the Muslim community and the rest.

03. Were are discussinig here not about conspiracy we are talking here about misleading the public and portraying Muslims as terrorists, 3000 people died & thats enough for you? If you really care about the loss of 3000 people who died & want to make sure that nobody gets the same faith, you need to do some
research go behind the conspiracy, tell the public whats really been happening,honor those poor souls by doing some justice and telling the people what really happened.

04. Religion is like a traffic light, if all people abide by there own religions less and less arguments and wars are going to take place. Without religion is like a
green traffic light in which everyone is moving & are likely to bump or get into an accident because the lights were green from every side.

On a sidenote, after reading your post, its quite clear to me from the very start that you are not going to agree with anything Ive to say. My sayings are not based on fiction, they are based on reality & many researches Ive done and are still doing. On the other hand your messaged felt like you wrote everything that jumped 1st into your mind, some research might help you in bringing up strong arguments, while doing research dont paste anything you see, build up your own opinion about it. :)

[Member_of_STARS]

Here Ive numbered your opinions so itll be easy for you to follow

01. I am not talking about immigrants or confusing anything, I am talking about the people who are non-muslim and are converting into Islam
Check the link below
http://rupeenews.com/2008/07/21/growing-muslims-in-europe-50000-brits-convert-every-year/

This article is horribly misleading. 50K increase in people with islamic beliefs is a crude guesstimate and even then, the figure isnt all that impressive.

Considering UKs 2001 statistics, theres an annual +170K increase in population with a staggering 660K+ births per year. Theres a +100K increase in population through annual migration.

The article didnt cite any reliable sources, nor did it cite the methods od getting those statistics. In fact they are citing sources like www.islamicpopulation.com, which would be as reliable as me citing some hardcore christian site which will always tell you that theres more converts into Christianity on global scale, than any other religion.

The amusing thing is that the article almost proves my point by saying this-

Most of the researchers believe that the fast erosion of the religious and cultural values in the Western societies is pushing its people towards Islam that offers a more comprehensive, well-knit and value-oriented cultural, social and family structure.

Which is pretty much saying that the atheist and agnostic views on the world and life are gathering momentum. Christianity and Islam do not differ from each other on the core basics.

Statistics estimate that theres up to 44% of non-religious people in the UK. That means that up to 56% is a mix between different religions.

The statistics in your own article wasnt clear on WHO are the convertees. Having talked to Brits about the subject, it doesnt look like its the caucasian majority. It may very well be the immigrant group which seeks to find acceptance, just like Russian criminal contingent did in the East Coast in the US.

The fact is, the world is turning Atheist/Agnostic, and not Muslim and not even Christian. The average education level in global scale is rising, and with that, the non-believing populus aswell.

http://gabriel.mihalache.name/ei/article/176/statistics-on-atheism

02. First of all if you dont feel any sort of shame by saying we know our women get abused? You should or anyoneselse saying that. You can bring all the rain you want, but a few pictures is not going to change the fact that abusement and rapes of women are quite high outside Muslim community, Muslim community have a very low rate of rape and abusing women all over the world, because of very strict punishments, hence everybody fears the punishment
and thinks twice before doing it, there are black sheeps all over the world, but youve to look at the majority & its less than any other religion.
You can use your almighty God Google on this one & if you do manage to share some information make sure its comparising the Muslim community and the rest.

Why should I be ashamed of women getting abused all over the world. Its called force majeure and its out of my hands. Id rather do something constructive than spend my time on fighting something I cannot control. What we can do, is raise public awareness, but it can only happen if the public is educated, open minded and open to new ideas, if the public is tolerant to other cultures. And Im not talking about the West. Currently, its the East that holds the ball. They need that public awareness, that neutral, nearly innocent view on world which would open their eyes to the only truth- that hurting your fellow man over your emotional weakness is wrong.

But you cannot even fathom the distance and effort it would take mankind, to reach that goal. And no, Islam is not the answer. Nor is Christianity. Education is the answer. Prosperity and Selflessness.

Listen, youre trying to prove that Muslims are less likely to abuse their women because of how Islam works. What you fail to understand is that Muslims are no different than Christians in the sense that they are all simple and fallible Men. You cannot seriously consider women to be treated right if they most often cant even choose whom they get married with. And how can you call this right if a woman is being stoned to death after cheating on her husband, when GENETICALLY, US HUMANS are POLYGAMOUS!

http://www.google.ee/search?hl=et&q=Islam+women+abusing&lr=

Take your pick.

By far the most sickening picture was a Muslim family enjoying the warm water and sandy beach, kids and husband in swimwear and mother having to wear traditional full clothing which covers the face, head and the whole body.

Remember. Im not saying Islam is worse than Christianity. Im saying that your portrayal and claims are WRONG and pure FABRICATION.

03. Were are discussinig here not about conspiracy we are talking here about misleading the public and portraying Muslims as terrorists, 3000 people died & thats enough for you? If you really care about the loss of 3000 people who died & want to make sure that nobody gets the same faith, you need to do some
research go behind the conspiracy, tell the public whats really been happening,honor those poor souls by doing some justice and telling the people what really happened.

The public and what really happened. Tell me, who are you to claim to know what really happened? As far as Im concerned, youre not even 15! We already saw what happened. It was a terrorist attack, orchestrated by a number of men who thought it served a higher purpose than their own existence, as a response to the growing and expanding Western philosophy.

I already did some research. The countless of proof that your kind has shown us, have ALL been debunked. By scientists and professionals in their own respective fields. Or do you have some evidence the world hasnt seen yet?

04. Religion is like a traffic light, if all people abide by there own religions less and less arguments and wars are going to take place. Without religion is like a
green traffic light in which everyone is moving & are likely to bump or get into an accident because the lights were green from every side.

Except that a human being does not operate in 0s and 1s like an operation system would. A human being is far too complex for that. And religion has been used as an excuse to kill and live selfishly, as much as it has been used to share love and understanding. But Im sure those that strap bombs on themselves and kill dozens of people for the sake of Allahs love, do so because they were colourblind.



My opinion is this-

Religion is a disgrace to mankind. In this world, a good man does good things and an evil man does evil. But it takes religion for a good man to commit evil.

[The Possessed]

Spirit, youre actually talking now like you have tha answers, sadly you dont. Religions fine but so many of the times it has led to war itself because of the differences in the ways of living. No man alive knows who our god is and some dont believe all together. People will bicker and argue about each others religion as if they know the answers. If you keep an open mind to religion youd have no problem. Thus I take the approach I believe in a creator, I dont pretend to know which one and I am respectful to him in my own way. I say Im a loose Christian because that was how I was originally brought up. The way of life taught in different religions as I said, is all well and good but you can teach the same lessons without religion involved. You dont need to pray and bow to a God to be a good person, a true God would recognise a moral or an evil person regardless.

On the women and abusment statistic, why should we feel shame that it goes on in our society? We (Hopefully) arent the ones doing it, the culprits will get there punishment but in the end we arent the society that goes out in a mob and slaughters for vengeance anymore. Rightly so because it makes us no better than the offender doing it. As I said before, you cant help those that dont want to be helped.

The rest of the argument does not interest me. Youre obsessed with blaiming people without religion or non Muslims for violent behavior and yet whether its with more statistics or not it goes on in your own religion. It has nothing to do with religion, it depends on that person. There are good people in the world and there are bad, religions doesnt ultimately decide the fate of a people, their upbringings and personalities do.

Originally you put blame on the media, now you put the blame on non-believers as a whole. Either way youre classifying people by groups and not putting it down to the individuals. Its a persons own mind that brings these troubles to the world, you can research psychology without the religion involved for that one.

[The Spirit]

Possessed, religions never lead you to war, as I previously stated, I dont know a single religion on the whole wide world that says do war & kill people for having there own beliefs. So what does that show you? As you previously said everybody is free to choose in between right and wrong, so war the is caused by the people not by the religion.

About the women thing, Member Of Stars got the wrong impression at 1st, I was talking about Women in general & also directing towards religion, meaning Bile,Quran do they tell you rape women & abuse them? The Answer : Certainly not! Who does them People, it has nothing to do with the religion. Most of the morals that we speak of comes from the Religion, meaning the moral just didntnot fell from the sky, it was made and put into the holy books & what do we call those Holy Books Religions

As for the media part, which I stated in my previous post as well is using religion as a tool to manipulate people, which has nothing to do with all of this.

As for the you acutally I know the asnwers? I never said my opinions are higher than yours or nor did I said that every Muslim is going to heaven and all the
non-muslims are not, I believe in equality and I always look open mindedly at things. Bottom line is this, everytime if someone does wrong Religion is put on the front, in case of the Muslims its Extreme.

I appreciate having and listening to others opinions but I dont like when someone puts a nail on it and point fingers at everyone and says like what I say is right & what you say is wrong. If I am right Ill prove it to you, if your right you prove it, thats called research and the key to the knowlege.

Heres an example : World Trade Centre incidence, if it has nothing to do with the terrorists (Al-Qaida) or muslims, why are they headlining Muslims everywhere? If you manage to asnwer that your are back to the 1st post I made.

P.S Member Of Stars, I told you in my previous posts, you can link as many pages/vids as you want, but what we all want to see is the comparison between the community, that which community has the highest and which has the lowest? In order to prove my previous statement wrong youve to comparison it, just targetting one community, does make others beleive that you dont like muslims. You may not say it, but your posts have many indications that leads to it. Im not mad at you if you dont like Muslims, you may have your own reasons for not liking them, just dont mix your personal feelings. :)

[Member_of_STARS]

I dont like religion. Be it Islam, Christianity, Hinduism. I like people to take responsibility for their own actions. I like atheism. But at the same time, Im not blind. I honestly believe that religion-less, purely scientific and methodical point of view sets Man in the center of his own universe and this will ultimately lead to our downfall. Ive said it previously, violence is coded into our genes. Its part of who we are. No matter who you are, everyone has the capacity to do wrong out of spite, no matter what their social background is.

You want comparison? The comparison is right here- over 90% of worlds scientifiic top does not believe in any [sic!] God.

There are more crimes against humanity commited it the East, than theres is in West.

The fact that you want comparison between Islam and Christianity proves that you regard Your own religion highest. I showed you a whole Google search result page on articles showing people who believe in Allah, commiting atrocities against women. You didnt care, you wanted a one on one comparison to how many of the same crimes are commited against women by Christians. Youve got Human Rights Watch to do digging and see for yourself. Cutting a womans ears away because she was unfaithful is considered a crime in the West. Its ignored in the East. Thats one of the most powerful notions of accepting primitive means and lifestyle one can find.

I respect anyone who is humble in thinking that he is not the top of the ladder in this universe. I struggle to respect anyone who defends their religion without considering the history of what they believe in, even moreso if they compare their religion to others, trying to portray themselves as believing in something better.

[thezombiemessia]

I dont know a single religion on the whole wide world that says do war & kill people for having there own beliefs.

Im keeping out of this argument after this post, as I feel that we have completely diverged from the original topic at hand. But I felt I needed to reply to this part in particular.

Note I can only quote the bible, as I have yet to finish the QuRan as a whole and cannot quote it directly.

I am, by the way, getting these quotes from a book called Kens Guide to The Bible which is, despite what the name suggest, a well researched and educational book all about the bible. I have sat down and read 3 different versions of The Bible, am reading the QuRan, and have read several hundred differing Religious scriptures, etc.

Anyways:

The Lord commands the Men of Israel to slay the Midianites. This they do, with gusto, killing every man, plundering and pillaging, and taking for slaves all the women and children. Nevertheless, when they return to camp, Moses is not pleased. Have you allowed all the Women to live? he asks them.

...kill every male among the little ones. And kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep for yourselves... Numbers 31:1-18

When Israel had finished slaughtering all the inhabitants of Ai in the open wilderness where they persued them, and when all of them to the very last had fallen by the edge of the sword, all Israel turned to Ai and attacked it with the edge of the sword. The total of those who fell that day, both men and womenm was twelve thousand - all the people of Ai. Joshua 8: 24-25

So Joshua defeated the whole land...He left no one remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10: 40



There are many more that I could quote, but I feel this is enough to show that The Bible (among many others) condones violence, salvery, rape, etc. All in the name of their God.


And, before anybody says anything, I am a person with some amount of faith within me...but I am willing to admit that no faith has a clear history, and the vast majority of faiths do preach hatred.

[Member_of_STARS]

I dont know a single religion on the whole wide world that says do war & kill people for having there own beliefs.

Im keeping out of this argument after this post, as I feel that we have completely diverged from the original topic at hand. But I felt I needed to reply to this part in particular.

Note I can only quote the bible, as I have yet to finish the QuRan as a whole and cannot quote it directly.

I am, by the way, getting these quotes from a book called Kens Guide to The Bible which is, despite what the name suggest, a well researched and educational book all about the bible. I have sat down and read 3 different versions of The Bible, am reading the QuRan, and have read several hundred differing Religious scriptures, etc.

Anyways:

The Lord commands the Men of Israel to slay the Midianites. This they do, with gusto, killing every man, plundering and pillaging, and taking for slaves all the women and children. Nevertheless, when they return to camp, Moses is not pleased. Have you allowed all the Women to live? he asks them.

...kill every male among the little ones. And kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep for yourselves... Numbers 31:1-18

When Israel had finished slaughtering all the inhabitants of Ai in the open wilderness where they persued them, and when all of them to the very last had fallen by the edge of the sword, all Israel turned to Ai and attacked it with the edge of the sword. The total of those who fell that day, both men and womenm was twelve thousand - all the people of Ai. Joshua 8: 24-25

So Joshua defeated the whole land...He left no one remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10: 40



There are many more that I could quote, but I feel this is enough to show that The Bible (among many others) condones violence, salvery, rape, etc. All in the name of their God.


And, before anybody says anything, I am a person with some amount of faith within me...but I am willing to admit that no faith has a clear history, and the vast majority of faiths do preach hatred.

I completely forgot those outtakes. Theres two particular sites on the web citing passages from both holy books which prove that theres violence written into the very faith. But honestly, those are books written by men and should be taken as that. I would rather blissfully believe that the first 10 commandments are the basis of both religions but yeah, your argument serves well to close this part of the debate.

[Tenebra]

Im going to stay away from this debate to avoid any confusion on my personal positions and professional involvement. Yes, it sucks, yes, its happened before and it does suck, so Ill stay out.

But Im going to say one little thing - with due respect, I think this is really digging into documents written in times where they were relevant in a particular social context. I think weve moved forward a bit and if we look at the various religions from a philosophical perspective well find that not many are based on hatred or violence. Surely well always find fundamentalists that will read the old words to the letter but taking that as the essence is pretty biased. You wouldnt judge a country based on the legislation they had 500 years ago, same applies to religion as its always been mixed with the ethical/social/political indoctrination of the time.

[thezombiemessia]

This is the major problem when a religious debate starts in my presence...I cant help but feel compelled to reply to something.

But honestly, those are books written by men and should be taken as that.

But Im going to say one little thing - with due respect, I think this is really digging into documents written in times where they were relevant in a particular social context. I think weve moved forward a bit and if we look at the various religions from a philosophical perspective well find that not many are based on hatred or violence. Surely well always find fundamentalists that will read the old words to the letter but taking that as the essence is pretty biased. You wouldnt judge a country based on the legislation they had 500 years ago, same applies to religion as its always been mixed with the ethical/social/political indoctrination of the time.

The problem with these 2 responses is this:

The vast majority of world Religions rely on a text of somekind. This text is often reported to be the word of God or the word of whichever deity the religion is founded around.

At this point, it is stated that the God/Gods/Godess has spoken the word, and the writer has then written on paper exactly as it was said.

To admit any fault within the text is to admit fault with the God/Godess/Gods, and as we know the idea behind any deity is that they are all powerful and infallible.

The reply to this is often to say that the author/script writer must have gotten it wrong...at which point you have to ask WHY a God/Godess/Gods would allow it to be wrong? If the text is to be trusted in any way, it must be just as infallible as the deity in question.

If you practice a certain religion, I do not think it is right to pick & choose which parts of the text you adhere to.

You can change it, agreed...but then you are once again admitting that parts of your religion are wrong.


This is why I say that I have faith, and am mildly religious...but I do not practice any specific religion (nor am I agnostic btw).

[Member_of_STARS]

I dont have a problem with that, due to my (lack of) belief. I take it as granted that theres no God. But were questioning the humanity in religion and how the holy books portray the religion. Since the books reflect the times, the violence in those times, which was part of everyday life, should be taken as archaic and outdated view on life.

Its common sense that the books were written by men and not God. But from a religious point of view, one could always argue that something went amiss in translation ;)

[cewolf]

well well well , i went to sleep and all this happen .....

ok this topic is spinning out of it original topic ...
some people here are trying to break my record in long posts :lol:

lot of things here to commit at but i prefer to keep it short since it is not related to the main topic ...( since when did that stop me )


i do agree with the spirit about the media does not handle any Islamic issue in a fair way ... i have tons of examples ..if any one interested i will send him a private message with details
In the end of the day its impossible to change a person who does not want to change
well , sadly that not always true ... it can happen with time and in an indirect way , media can have that effect ...

Member_of_STARS
As a matter of fact, we know our women may get abused. They know where to get help and if charges are filed, the offender will get a pretty heavy boot up his arse. If a woman is mistreated in Middle-East, in a lot of cases, it may be ignored due to cultural and religious traditions. Fact of the matter is, women ARE more free in the West, than they are in the East. You dont need to argue that. I can bring rain on your parade in form of statistics and pictures provided by the mighty God Google.com. The very notion of arguing over female rights and comparing East to West is ridiculous.

i do agree that there is abuse to women all over , but still in many cases it is not as bad as in the west ( depends in which country )
many countries such as kuwait , UAE eygpt lebanon and tunisia has centers to help victims, all the countries has laws against abuse ,
number of brutal attacks in countries such as kuwait , jordan , Lebanon are less than in the west ( also depends on the country ) the number of rape and sexual abuse here are waaaay less than the west , penalties for rape and sexual abuse here are more strict than the west ( might vary form country to another , but in general it is more strict ) i used to have studies and statistics scattered here and there in my home back in jordan ...
i still do agree that are some serious abuses happens and in some countries the situation is really bad due to some cultural issues and ignorance to Islamic rules and regulations ... but not as bad as in the media .... trust me ... i live here
I can bring rain on your parade in form of statistics and pictures provided by the mighty God Google.com.
and while you at that , you will find that many statistics dont match each other ... just for your knowledge , some studies are made for political use in order to interfere with internal issues , few cases like this happened in jordan few years ago i remember a certain case very well , where an American institute made a study about some case and came that there is around 361 cases of that abuse happens in jordan every year ( funny that similar cases happen in the US with higher percentage ) then that study was used to put pressure on jordan to change some rules ..along this , other unrelated laws were changed . actually the study was not accurate , the true number of that abuse was only 11 each year ... the institute depended in their study on the police reports which showed 300 case , but when the investigation is completed the court records shows that the actual numbers of that abuse were only 11 , the rest of the cases were different type of crime where the criminal received the max penalty ... you know what is not funny , after changing the laws ... the number of abuses did not drop , and the US government was not interested any more .... they have done what they wanted ... if you are interested i can give you more details about that case and other studies , PM me if you want

The very notion of arguing over female rights and comparing East to West is ridiculous
a very good example of the effect of the media , how dare you say that, what do you know about us , nothing but what the media says ...
i suggest that you make a visits here and see how much things are different , i dont deny that there are many abuses happen to women at some level or another and some times it is really bad , but not as bad as you think and in the same time there are situations that were women are treated waaaaaaay better that any place on earth , situations that never mentioned in the media .... i dont need statistics for that .... i live here ( if you want to discuss this , PM me )

. Right now, considering how the world develops, Im pretty sure that its moving the other way around, people are tired of religious BS and are turning into either atheists or agnostics
i disagree
Wrong. Traditional religion takes away our sense of responsibility and makes us easier to manipulate by those with will.
i dont know about other religions .... but that is not true with Islam , the fact that every one is responsible for his own actions and no one else but him is one of the basic fundamentals of Islam
Religion is a disgrace to mankind. In this world, a good man does good things and an evil man does evil. But it takes religion for a good man to commit evil.

wow ... thats dark


Those of us that followed public media have known of these conspiracy theories since day one. Youre trying to show it as a fact, which it isnt. The FACT is, you dont know what happened and the most likely explanation to it all was the one released to public. The FACT is, more than 3000 people died. Thats enough for me. You dont have a single shred of evidence to back your claim up and you leave an impression of a juvenile kid with too many Clancy books.
i tend to believe it is an inside job too , do you know that 6 of the aligable hijackers are STILL A LIVE !!
if you like you can check a nice documentary made in the Us ( dont know by who ) ... if you know the torrent program vuze , you can find a link to that documentary there ... i am not saying that what is in that movie is true , but it will make you wounder , check your self if you like

. The FACT is, more than 3000 people died. Thats enough for me
i will be a little rude now , but
-15000 Lebanese died in bombing in Beirut in 1982 by the American New jerssy battle ship (in one single day )
-1,600,000 Iraqi died due to the sanctions from 1992 to 2003
-according to American NGO 10,000 Iraqi civilian died in the main operations before Saddam rule fall
-200,000 Muslim were brutally murdered in Bosnia and Kosofo
-an estimated 2,500,000 Muslim form Chechnia FROZE TO DEATH when Stalin excelled the entire chechnian people from their homes to Siberia frozen deserts after ww2 ( some records say much more )
-the UN stated that an estimated 100,000 chichnian civilian died in the Russian DETENTION CAMPS ( not in war zones ) in 2000
-8,000,000 Palestinian are out of their homes after their lands been taken from them from 1945 up to now ( by the way ..... i am one of them )
-do you know that there is 2,000,000 Palestinian NOW ( as you read this ) are living with no Fuel , cocking gas , electricity , food , clean water , medicines not even candles for the past 4 weeks after Israel sealed Gaza strip completely , do you know that people there started to eat animals food ... do you know how many died due to kidney failures after the hospitals stopped operating ( by the way ..that was OUR live for the past 60 years )
( i can go on and on and on ........)
that is not enough for you ?!!
does the media ever talk about that .... i am not justifying what happened in September 11 , after all i think it is an inside job , but are the lifes of those poor 3000 people are more valuable than our ... sadly yes .... the media does that ..... it make you feel numb about that , right now while i wright this , 2 million Palestinian are in complete dark , it is night now , and there is no electricity not even candles ...and no body cares ...... why , many reasons , one of them that the image of the Palestinian people in the west is that they are terrorists villeins and savage

what i mentioned above is nothing compared to what actually happening and been happening in the pat 60 years , you have to live here to know .... and thats why there is terrorism my friend , not because as a response to the growing and expanding Western philosophy. as you said , it is a revenge my friend , with religious flavor
There are more crimes against humanity commited it the East, than theres is in West.
true ... and the media tells you that it is because of Islam in a way or another but never tell you that religious people are the most victims of that abuse ( i took some of that heat my self ) nor tell you that some western sides are involved in some of them at some level or another ( i dont mean to be rude ... but i live here , we are the ones who are suffering ) the first extremist lines were created in the unjust jails 50 years ago .... a normal result to the extream methods our government used against its people ....

i am sorry if i have went out of the topic here , i hope that what i said was not inappropriate , after all it is a gaming forum ... but i could not help it
Please ...any one who would like to discuss any of that ... keep it on PM

ok i will stop right now ... i saud that i will keep it short and will try to keep it within the topic ...... and it is clear that i failed ...

i hope that i did not offend any one with what i said , i know that i went off the topic , but i think that it is very important that this should be known .

and pleas people , if you want to discuss any of what i said i perefer to keep it on Pm since it is not related to the topic , and the fact it will start a war here


sorry again

zico out

[Member_of_STARS]

i do agree that there is abuse to women all over , but still in many cases it is not as bad as in the west ( depends in which country )

Where the hell are you living? Because youve just described bullsh!t.

*If youre under 18, refrain from clicking this link- GRAPHIC CONTENT!*

http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/womenchildabuse/index.htm

You still saying its not as bad as in the West? Because youre forgetting one MAJOR difference. Most cases of women abuse in East are part of culture and as such, are not legally seen as abuse while in the West, verbal derogatory attacks on gender automatically classify as abuse. Furthermore- West is far more open to more correct statistics as censorship is frowed upon as the numbers youre showing are more likely to be conjured up.

many countries such as kuwait , UAE eygpt lebanon and tunisia has centers to help victims

There are programs here aswell. Safehouses, 24/7 councelling, immediate help. What happens if a husband slaps a woman in the West? The husband gets penalised. What happens to the woman if she reports husband abuse to the police? What happens to an unfaithful woman in the East? She gets stoned.

all the countries has laws against abuse

Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world that prevents women from driving, studying law and engineering, directly selling or buying property, attending court (even when accused of murder), and showing their faces in public.

number of brutal attacks in countries such as kuwait , jordan , Lebanon are less than in the west

Objectives: To explore the extent of child abuse in Kuwait and examine the difficulties associated with its management. Subjects and Methods: A retrospective analysis of the 60,640 medical records of children admitted to Al-Amiri and Mubarak Al-Kabeer Hospitals, Kuwait, between 1991 and 1998 was done. Results: Of the 60,640 records, 16 children showed evidence of abuse. Of these, the perpetrator was a parent in 75% of the cases, which involved the following abuses: physical, 13; sexual, 2; and Munchausen syndrome by proxy in 1. Children with physical abuse had more than one type that included bruises (77%), burns (38%), intracranial haemorrhage (38%), fractures (23%) and cut wounds (15%). Seven of the children were returned to their biological parents, 7 were lost to follow-up and 2 died. Conclusion: Child abuse exists in Kuwait and is probably underreported. Management proceedings are not ideal and guidelines as well as legislation are needed.

Upon trying to find accurate statistics on child and women abuse in global scale, I just hit a dead end. When we get to statistics for USA, CAN, EU and even Russia and Eastern Europe, we get numbers, stats, hospital reports. But even when trying to find numbers on Jordania and Kuwait, heres what I see that directly influences the numbers and statistics one would find over the internet-

Parliamentarians justified their defense of honor killings as protection of Jordans traditional and moral values against western influences. ... Human Rights Watch further called on the Jordanian parliament to provide protection for women threatened by their family members on the basis of honor, and to abolish other laws that discriminate against women, including the rape law, citizenship law, passport law, and social security law.

You do understand what that means, dont you? That the cases you think dont exist, do not exist because of legal reasons. Theres no woman abuse if a woman commits adultery and is subjected to whipping, stoning or honour killing.

the number of rape and sexual abuse here are waaaay less than the west

Considering the fact that a girl that is 9 years old or older, can be had sex with, even against their will, and that is legally allowed, Id say indeed... sexual abuse is waaaaaay less than in the west. [/sarcasm]

During the 6 months I worked in an emergency medical service in Estonia, the only cases of violence against women I saw were a couple of robberies. And I worked in the biggest hospital in the nation.

penalties for rape and sexual abuse here are more strict than the west

How can you claim that, while knowing that spousal rape in Jordania (for example) is not considered illegal?

Also, one of the studies claim that nearly 20% of Jordanian women are subject to domestic violence and vast majority of those think that its OK (hence why they wont get reported).

i still do agree that are some serious abuses happens and in some countries the situation is really bad due to some cultural issues and ignorance to Islamic rules and regulations ... but not as bad as in the media .... trust me ... i live here

Trust me, I live in Eastern Europe. I can tell you that Ive only ever known of one person get raped. [/irony]

Your countries cultural background itsself suggests that most of whats happening, is staying and will stay behind doors. Stats in West are really no better. 90% of rape cases will never get reported. But at the very least, we dont pardon spousal abuse (among vast number of other things). We are striving to not to objectify women.

and while you at that , you will find that many statistics dont match each other ... just for your knowledge , some studies are made for political use in order to interfere with internal issues

So youre basically saying that the West lies about the East?

*If youre under 18, refrain from clicking this link- GRAPHIC CONTENT!*

http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/womenchildabuse/index.htm

Im sure they do... [/sarcasm, just in case]

361 cases of that abuse happens in jordan every year ( funny that similar cases happen in the US with higher percentage )

A) Cultural differences create a situation where in the US, verbal abuse can bring serious consequences whereas in Jordan, spousal abuse and honour killings are not illegal. Just because youre allowed to bitchslap your lady in your country, doesnt mean its not abuse.

B) Censorship. Heres a quick Google search-

http://www.google.com/search?q=Censorship+Jordan&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1

the true number of that abuse was only 11 each year

Did you know that the Communist Party won the elections every time with a 99%+ rate in former USSR?

a very good example of the effect of the media , how dare you say that, what do you know about us , nothing but what the media says ...

What media? You mean the Internet? Youre so hurt about me claiming that I know a thing or two about the region you live in, yet youre doing exactly the same. Do you know the meaning of the word hypocrite? Youre trying to claim that your region is safer to women and children than the West. Pictures tell a thousand words.

. Right now, considering how the world develops, Im pretty sure that its moving the other way around, people are tired of religious BS and are turning into either atheists or agnostics

i disagree

You disagree on what exactly? That since the First Worlds education level is in an everincreasing rise, that the non-believing numbers are going up? Or on the fact that Christians (for example) are busy converting people from the (ironically) Third World?

Or that people are tired of extremists killing for their God?

i dont know about other religions .... but that is not true with Islam , the fact that every one is responsible for his own actions and no one else but him is one of the basic fundamentals of Islam

Hes responsible for his own actions because its Allahs judgement over his actions. Ergo, hes responsible for his actions in front of Allah thus not being responsible for himself. The responsibility is shifted from his shoulder. Dont you realise that this is how people are fooled into strapping Semtex belts on?

Religion is a disgrace to mankind. In this world, a good man does good things and an evil man does evil. But it takes religion for a good man to commit evil.

wow ... thats dark

Considering the last 2000 years of our history, not to mention the latest history, its as true as it can be. But fear not, the second closest sin of mankind is extreme nationalism.

i tend to believe it is an inside job too , do you know that 6 of the aligable hijackers are STILL A LIVE !!
if you like you can check a nice documentary made in the Us ( dont know by who ) ... if you know the torrent program vuze , you can find a link to that documentary there ... i am not saying that what is in that movie is true , but it will make you wounder , check your self if you like

Thats why they are called alleged hijackers.

Its all a case of mistaken identities.

http://www.911myths.com/html/still_alive.html

Just because its the FBI doesnt mean they screw up. And I know the documentary youre talking about. Its just as waterproof as one of the most famous called Loose change which had 100% clear evidence to back the conspiracy theory up, until educated people ripped it apart.

. The FACT is, more than 3000 people died. Thats enough for me
i will be a little rude now , but

Youre not rude. Youre just stupid. You took it out of context. Im telling you that a 3000 victim crime is still a crime. Just as a 1 victim crime is a crime. If its an attack against a civilian population over ideologies, it deserves a retaliation, a punishment.

-15000 Lebanese died in bombing in Beirut in 1982 by the American New jerssy battle ship (in one single day )

First, 15 THOUSAND during one day, is a proposterous lie. Check your sources. Secondly, how many attacks do you think one should attempt before being beat down into submission?

-1,600,000 Iraqi died due to the sanctions from 1992 to 2003

Youre shifting responsibility of Saddam Hussein to the West. That is wrong. Youre basically saying its not Hitlers fault that so many German civilials died, its the Allies fault.

-according to American NGO 10,000 Iraqi civilian died in the main operations before Saddam rule fall

Once were being fired from a mosque, it is no longer a mosque., I hope you understand the meaning of this.

Its called collateral damage. See, if it was Russian Army that invaded Iraq, the casualties would easily be five times as high. Its not an excuse to US armed forces, but I can tell you that those numbers would be smaller if Iraqis didnt use their civilian peers as human shields. The use of clusterbombs is the worst thing US could have done.

-200,000 Muslim were brutally murdered in Bosnia and Kosofo

Youre saying as if it was the West that did that. The West tried to prevent that, while East did little to nothing. It was an ethnic conflict between minor (put in perspective) ethnic groups. Youre just lieing here.

-an estimated 2,500,000 Muslim form Chechnia FROZE TO DEATH when Stalin excelled the entire chechnian people from their homes to Siberia frozen deserts after ww2 ( some records say much more )

An estimate TEN MILLION Ukrainians shared the same fate. MILLIONS of RUSSIANS did the same. HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of EASTERN EUROPEANS did the same. Are you trying to spin bullsh!t as if it was Wests doing again? Russia at the time was NOT a part of West.

-do you know that there is 2,000,000 Palestinian NOW ( as you read this ) are living with no Fuel , cocking gas , electricity , food , clean water , medicines not even candles for the past 4 weeks after Israel sealed Gaza strip completely , do you know that people there started to eat animals food ... do you know how many died due to kidney failures after the hospitals stopped operating ( by the way ..that was OUR live for the past 60 years )
( i can go on and on and on ........)

They should start living in a way that does not bring violence and harm, instead of trying to STILL destroy the sionist pest. They elected themselves the leadership that brings them no future. So now what? Youre blaming the West for that? Hell, if they were so sincere in being victims, I wouldnt have to watch this and laugh my rear off-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoIYFvuFFWs

that is not enough for you ?!!

Please, amuse me some more.

true ... but most of them committed by the west ( i dont mean to be rude ... but i live here , we are the ones who are dieing )

Wait. How exactly? Because of sanctions? You DO know how the economy works, right? Its called FREE TRADE. I choose whether or not I will sell you my goods and you misbehave, Im not selling you anything. Thats the kindergarten theory. So how can you blame anyone if you (in a very loose term) are trying to erradicate us?

i am sorry if i have went out of the topic here , i hope that what i said was not inappropriate , after all it is a gaming forum ... but i could not help it
Please ...any one who would like to discuss any of that ... keep it on PM

If you want this in PM, you should start by posting in PMs. Dont be a hypocrite.

[Tenebra]

Can I ask everybody to please sit back for a minute?

Im absolutely up for intelligent debates on serious and delicate matters but please lets not turning it into a cultural/religious/political/racial/ethical slaughter, whatever the subject is. Open mind and tact, please, surely you dont need me to remind you that there is more than one side and absolutes are not of this world (at least). Im well aware that everybody has their rooted set of beliefs and values but remember theyre your own, theyre not universal.

I still think that cultural anthropology should be a compulsory subject at school.

My suggestion is to leave your pc for a few minutes before hitting the post button, debates should be for personal growth, not point scoring.

[cewolf]

Tenebra : ... should i continue , or should i stop ...

Member_of_STARS : check you pm this after noon

zico out

[Member_of_STARS]

A debate *on the internet* is all competition, its a sport. Its an exchange of ideas with the outcome being either a draw, or someone prevailing. Its just a form of entertainment. Noones trying to change the world here. Its all amusement. The cut throat appearance of it may easily come from the fact that English is not his nor mine first language, and its used in frank and simplified ways.

[The Possessed]

An interesting point Tenebra. Ive always liked the Internet to express the things that are deeper in my mind. At times I can be open minded but most of the time I am busy trying to score points against other people or pick the negatives of other peoples opinions. There is also anger there that I wouldnt let out at people in front of me. I think when I was at my worst was probably my modding days. Hm I think Im going to take this message as an oppurtunity to re-think how I debate again.

[Nabil Mishima]

Well, since I started the thread, which seems like a mistake. All I wanted to ask was why muslim actors so called get used, but they dont as TZM and TP have got it through my head now. So tenebra, you can lock this before a fight breaks out.

[Tenebra]

I dont have a problem with point scoring debates as long as they are on relatively trivial subjects but you need to bear in mind that being the beloved interweb anonymity there are still people.

Argue to your hearts content on RE but lets keep point scoring out of racial/religious subjects, please.

[Member_of_STARS]

I dont see it as an argument over religion, but rather an argument over politics and culture with a scewed and biased perception of both. This still is a General discussion board. Aslong as theres no flames, it should be ignored, dont you think?