View Full Version : Is piracy wrong?
iiAVENGERii
14-10-09, 15:22
I bought MHFU UMD, I personally believe piracy is wrong because it does no one a favour. Especially the people who were involved in the making of this game, because i know how much work and effort it takes to make just 1 game.
What's your view?
Naturally.
However, I also feel strongly about companies that produce crappy games.
My brother and sister both bought games when they were younger (about 10 and 12) with their xmas money.
My parents were saying "oh it's their money, leave them alone". So they paid about £50 for the two gameboy colour games, Shrek and The Grinch, because they liked the films.
The game they both had before was pokemon, and I don't think I need to underline the difference, but it nearly put the poor guys off videogames. I don't think they ever played their gameboys again after that.
I am going to Keep a close eye in this topic!
Yes it is wrong.
Selling games is what funds future games.
It take money out of the pockets of the people who make them.
You get no official support for a "copy" game.
It looks cheap
It's theft
Many people who do this use the cash to fund other criminal activities, Not all people do this but it still does not make it right.
Could go on but I think i have listed the main reasons.
I am going to move this to the general section of the forum.
draconacticus
14-10-09, 16:35
Yeah, of course it's wrong! It's intellectual property theft! As someone who has a few granted patents it'd certainly make me angry if someone reproduced my company's technologies, brushing aside and all those years of blood sweat and tears, without us getting a bean from it. It's theft, pure and simple.
I agree with Soop though, there are a lot of crappy games out there that make life difficult for producers of decent titles. When people are burnt by buying rubbish titles it might make them feel justified in breaking the law in their minds. The worst console for it IMO is the Wii. The number of truly appalling Wii Sports clones that came out was staggering and was symptomatic of a number of companies being greedy and not giving two hoots about the quality of the games they make.
I was also dissappointed when i first got my PSP that all the titles were incredibly short and I felt £25 for a game i could complete in under 10 hours was taking the mickey. Then I found Monster Hunter Freedom and I didn't buy another title for 6 months :)
I used to be a pirate(arrrgh), cause we dont have laws against piracy here, even my web provider supports it(with quite a few ftp servers full of games and movies).
Maybe its because the average pay here is 400 euro and a new game costs 50, which is 1/8 of the average pay, kinda expensive dont you think?
My view on piracy changed capcom, with the first shirt i won here and later with other free stuff. I felt guilty, they give away free stuff for me and i dont even buy their games? Thats not fair!
Gaming companies deserve money for their hard work, if everybody pirated their games, they would bankrupt. Some of my friends think im insane that i spend so much money for games, even if i can download them in 15 minutes, but they dont understand it.
Its been 3 or 4 months since i downloaded a game and i returned the debt to capcom by buying Sf4, Resident evil, Resident evil 2, 3 and 5(limited steelbook edition :D)
thezombiemessia
14-10-09, 18:20
Videogame iracy is wrong in all cases.
If you don not have the money to buy an expensive game, you save your money up.
If you "just want to try it out" then you rent it, or wait for it to get cheap, or you buy it and return it if you don't like it, or you trade the game in when you realise you don't like it.
If you don't like the company, then you either don't buy the game, or you get over yourself and pay for it.
If you think "one pirate won't harm this company" you're sorely mistaken, especially given the fact that you won't be "just one" you'll be "one of many."
How would you feel if you spent months, if not years, designing and building a game...only for it to take in less money because people felt like copying it instead?
How would you feel if you worked as a car Salesman, and people decided to steal cars from you, rather than pay for them?
Think that example is too extreme? If you can point out what the major differences are, then fine...but there aren't really any differences in the long run.
Game Piracy is theft, in all cases.
I understand why people do it, although I do realise a company has made this to make money, without our money games can't be made.
I use emulators and roms on my laptop, but only of games and consoles I own, while some people may still disagree with me doing so, at least I own the game and haven't taken away from companies. On a side note, since most are old games it wouldn't effect the companies who produced the game anyway since I could only get it second hand. And as I've said many times before, I much prefer physically having things.
Crashjohnson
16-10-09, 09:37
hmmdo p[eople feel about abandon ware? I mean like games that are so old you can't find the originals, games that aren't reproduced? like sya secret of mana for the snes, you can't find that anywhere else but on an emulator nowadays. and what about games that only came out in the states? am I right in asusming they wouldn't work on a PAL version of the psp? as I know a lot of games for other consoles have bene region locked. I know this is all moot now that the GO! has come out, but still how do people feel about this?
Both aren't really valid excuses CrashJohnson..
All psp games are region free, and if you feel like you want to play games like Chrono trigger, secret of mana, and other "rare" games, you can find those if you look hard enough for it. (And have the cash to spend on it.) THere is no excuse for piracy.
Also, this article, posted on Joystiq, is quite relevant to the topic AND the Capcom forum.
Faced with The Truth that – regardless of what sorts of anti-piracy technology it folds into its DS platform – pirates will invariably hack (http://nintendo.joystiq.com/2009/08/06/looks-like-dsi-firmware-1-4-is-defeated-already/) the dual-screened handheld, Nintendo has buddied up with Capcom and 53 other video game publishers in Japan to file suit against four resellers of the popular R4 (http://www.joystiq.com/tag/R4/) flash cartridge.
Earlier this year, a Tokyo court banned the sale of the devices (http://www.joystiq.com/2009/02/27/japan-court-bans-sale-of-ds-homebrew-enabling-r4-flash-carts/); however, Capcom now says that "legal action has had no meaningful effect in the intervening period" and that sellers would "ignore" its warnings. Enter: a new lawsuit, which Capcom hopes leads to a ruling that acknowledges "our company and other software manufactures have sustained [extreme] damages from proliferation of illegal instruments." Seems pretty cut and dry to us, but we'll let the courts decide.
Honestly i dont see why people bother downloading stuff anyway if they have the money to do it, and the means to get it.
But every gamer who knows his games has tried ROMs/MAMEs of games that were either never reached here, or can never find, some of course do have the originals as well, so theres no law breaking there, with ROMs at least, im still right in saying theres a law meaning you can play a game for 24 hours before having to delete it?
The banning of the R4 would truly suck. While I understand why they want to do it, it means people don't get to see some of the amazing homebrew tools and games on the console they were made to be used on.
im still right in saying theres a law meaning you can play a game for 24 hours before having to delete it?
That never existed in the first place.
It's a common believed theory, but no, it's not true at all.
I think the clause about "I own the originals" is not a valid reason when the Organisations who track these things are at your door either.
I read a news article about that aaaaaaaaages ago though, can't recall.
Basically, delete all that illegal stuff you have on your pc right now, and turn over a new leaf! Pay to play! Use video reviews, trailers and people you know as reference for games and decide if they are a worthwile investment.
You know who you are!
Crashjohnson
18-10-09, 00:21
hmm, well I didn't if psp games were region locked or not, cheers for answering my question. but as for roms... why am I going to buy a SNES and old SNES game, both of which will cost me, just to play one or two games from my past for one or two days? I know on say the WII, you can download them for next to nothing, which would easily cut down ont he need, but they don't have all the game,s and even if I did buy a SNES and the game, the game companies don't get any money for it anyway as they're all discontinued, the one blunder I made was that I played crono trigger and didn't relaise until alter it was out on DS, I don't have aD.S, but that would ahve made me think twice. and people can complain about it being piracy all they want, but I mean relaly, I doubt the game companies care abotu old discontinued games that they no longer make money on, Roms for say... a D.S would be very wrong and pirated. but I don't really see why people would complain about games they can't make money on anymore. lets be relaistic here, who would care? and Jalrino, before you post, make sureyou ahve read my post properly and have understood it. lol
The banning of the R4 would truly suck. While I understand why they want to do it, it means people don't get to see some of the amazing homebrew tools and games on the console they were made to be used on.
srry for double post but't know how to add a quote afterwards...
anywho, i think the R4 should be banned I mean, its actually stealing money from companies, money they should be making, I think that is blatant piracy
[There is an edit button, for future notice. TZM]
Nocturnal Stillness
18-10-09, 14:21
What gets me about any kind of piracy is the fact that companies complain about it yet other companies provide you with the equipment to do it.
For example take the lowly video recorder, technically most films have copyright notices as do tv shows but here we have an official device that allows people to record the copyrighted material. Now people have DVD recorders to do the same thing. I doubt anyone who's owned one has never used it to tape a film or a tv show, well as I said that is technically piracy.
The only way anyone will stop piracy is by stopping the companies that supply the technology first.
I know most of the previous posts were regarding videogame piracy, but i think the principle still stands, stop companies making the tech and you stop games being pirated.
thezombiemessia
18-10-09, 16:28
Whats R4?
R4 was/is a device you can get the DS that lets you store your own stuff on a DS cartridge.
You can save music or video files, to play on your DS, or you can download homebrew DS games to play on your DS.
roblem is, it is mostly used for pirating DS games.
What gets me about any kind of piracy is the fact that companies complain about it yet other companies provide you with the equipment to do it.
For example take the lowly video recorder, technically most films have copyright notices as do tv shows but here we have an official device that allows people to record the copyrighted material. Now people have DVD recorders to do the same thing. I doubt anyone who's owned one has never used it to tape a film or a tv show, well as I said that is technically piracy.
The only way anyone will stop piracy is by stopping the companies that supply the technology first.
I know most of the previous posts were regarding videogame piracy, but i think the principle still stands, stop companies making the tech and you stop games being pirated.
Thing is, all of these other things have other uses. They are supposed to be used rimarily for creating home movies, etc.
It's a fine line between selling something that you use to make your own stuff, and selling something that you use to steal other peoples stuff.
Sadly, the line gets blurred all too often.
Getting rid of the R4 is a kind of first-step towards getting rid of technology like this. Same with the PSPGo.
i think the R4 should be banned I mean, its actually stealing money from companies, money they should be making, I think that is blatant piracy
It's not blatant piracy. It may be used largely for piracy, but it's not blatant piracy.
I think they have every intention of using it to abuse pirate games, I looked it up on YouTube and its Wiki, you can't honestly say the likes of the R4 are purely mean't for homebrew, even its media players involve file converstion to .mp4 format, which is piracy to convert a format from an illicit source to run on it.
I have sorta mixed views on piracy, I deem it wrong and rather insulting for those of us who went to the effort to actually buy the game. "Only available in Japan" is also a pretty lame excuse, I've got cheap imorted anime for under £40, including shipping.
Not only is it nice to have a large collection of legit games and movies, it's also supporting the industries dedicated to bringing such quality stuff to us, and even if a game costs £40 now, it won't do a year down the line.
But on the other hand, I think certain laws associated with piracy are rather draconian, the fact that industry fat cats have the money and power to ruin lives is preposterous, some would say that a person who steals deserves this, however, piracy just takes a few mouse clicks to break the law, not nearly as cold hearted or malicious as armed robbery or shoplifting, and also when money isn't a factor, I get annoyed when good YouTube channels get shut down for infringement despite their "stolen" material was a parody or actually encouraged buying the source material.
My two cents.
The banning of the R4 would truly suck. While I understand why they want to do it, it means people don't get to see some of the amazing homebrew tools and games on the console they were made to be used on.
Name 3 homebrew games worth having.
but as for roms... why am I going to buy a SNES and old SNES game, both of which will cost me, just to play one or two games from my past for one or two days?
Then why would you want them if they're not worth it?
But on the other hand, I think certain laws associated with piracy are rather draconian, the fact that industry fat cats have the money and power to ruin lives is preposterous, some would say that a person who steals deserves this, however, piracy just takes a few mouse clicks to break the law, not nearly as cold hearted or malicious as armed robbery or shoplifting, and also when money isn't a factor, I get annoyed when good YouTube channels get shut down for infringement despite their "stolen" material was a parody or actually encouraged buying the source material.
My two cents.
Dante, you've been around, you got to know us a little bit. Are we really those fat cats with no heart who live on poor gamers souls and money? Nay, and you know that. One may not hurt, thousands do. Oooh, they do. The fat cat lawyers are brought in to stop the dripping, not because we like giving away money. I'd rather push money back into the community, and I'm not the only one.
Dante, you've been around, you got to know us a little bit. Are we really those fat cats with no heart who live on poor gamers souls and money? Nay, and you know that. One may not hurt, thousands do. Oooh, they do. The fat cat lawyers are brought in to stop the dripping, not because we like giving away money. I'd rather push money back into the community, and I'm not the only one.
I understand that people are in their respective industries to make money in exchange for their products and services, thats how business works, and I'm certainly not suggesting that Capcom are a bunch of fat cats, I was talking about EVERY industry, not just the gaming one (apologies if that seemed somewhat obscure in my initial post.), Music and film industries are harsh, especially when I hear the stories of individuals being fined in excess of $20,000 because they've lost all understanding that what they are doing is illegal.
The stories I hear frequently involve individuals, not criminal gangs or organised crime rings getting hit hard for downloading products they wouldn't have the money to contribute anyway, that doesn't justify those downloading illegal material one bit, but it certainly feels harsh that an entire company with the funds and resources go to the effort of taking down an individual whose obviously doing what they do because they have no money, whilst many still continue to get away with it.
I'm not saying piracy can be justified, the laws and rules in place need tweaking so that the industry survives and the piracy declines, whilst giving people a chance to redeem themselves and actually buy the product.
The thing is that at some point you have to make a point. Somebody, at some point is going to hit the headlines because, in the end, that's another industry that has to live with something and that will be sensational news.
I know what you're referring to, still that wasn't downloading one game but being part of a torrent and seeding. So, where does it end, and how does it end? If you are clued up enough with the interweb to join a torrent, surely you are clued up enough to check out what's legal and what isn't and what the consequences are? No? What are we prepared to accept as ignorance because Dante, this goes well beyond piracy, it's the favourite excuse.
The thing is that at some point you have to make a point. Somebody, at some point is going to hit the headlines because, in the end, that's another industry that has to live with something and that will be sensational news.
I know what you're referring to, still that wasn't downloading one game but being part of a torrent and seeding. So, where does it end, and how does it end? If you are clued up enough with the interweb to join a torrent, surely you are clued up enough to check out what's legal and what isn't and what the consequences are? No? What are we prepared to accept as ignorance because Dante, this goes well beyond piracy, it's the favourite excuse.
This is certainly true and I see your point, in that perspective there are essentially no excuses.
The industry has to do this for its own sake and for it to work, I'm not denying that, but I must apologise for bringing "the news" in to this since they essentially overhype everything with big figures.
You clearly know more about this than I do, so I'm going to agree wholeheartedly, the laws are necessary.
I'm all up for discussing it as an insider and an outsider. The thing is that I was brought up in a world where you'd save up for what you wanted and didn't expect that things other people worked to put together came for free. The availability we enjoy these days seems to have turned everything into a right. And this is the Tenebra the consumer talking, not the gaming industry person.
I think that ideal stands true for many people, I was raised to believe that a person can make money no matter what their situation and not to take what you can't afford, especially true when I bought a broadband package I couldn't keep up with on a £30 a week wage.
There is indeed a sense of accomplishment to go to the effort to save up enough cash and buy a spanking new game, I know this because I've lived it, prior to my first full time job. Entertainment is indeed a privilage, not a right as many would question and to remove all obstacles and download a file makes me really pity the person thats not gone down the shops, slapped their hard earned down on the counter and left with their hard work paying off, nearly every pay day I come home with a nice new game, it's certainly worth it.
Well, I used to get pirated games too - at the highest peak I had also various Arcade Games on my MAME emulator, of course having that precious SNES emulator and a bucket full of Games - of which I would consider at least 1/3 not worth the money. These days I still see Diablo 2 being sold, but who still remembers Baldurs Gate? These are things that made me wonder, but mistakes are mistakes, the one or the other way - the way how you handle them in your way to bettering yourself is that what makes it.
Yet, looking through various SNES Rom sites I found that there are basically no Nintendo Games to be found for such reason, also declared as copyrighted and thus removed - on the other hand side I can still find Squaresoft and Capcom strongly represented, and so, what do I got to believe from that?
Name 3 homebrew games worth having.
AmplituDS
Colors
Flight From The Dark
Although now that I think about it, AmplituDS is nothing more than a remake and Flight From The Dark is simply one of those role-playing-make-your-own-adventure book things.
Carbonox_Ratchet
19-10-09, 16:39
It's easy to sit here and say that piracy is utter faaaail. What I am curious about is what everyone's stance is on used game sales. It essentially falls under the same bracket of paying without playing. Heh, indeed you pay the stores for the used games but like piracy, the gaming industry/developers don't get a dime, yet you get their games.
The reasoning behind buying used games is similar to piracy - depending on certain people.
1. Game sucks too much to be worth £40
2. Developer mindframe is such that paying them to play an otherwise good game is out of the question
3. Boycotting
4. You can't afford a new game/you're a cheap bugger.
etc. etc. etc.
The used game 'industry' is also growing at a rather fast pace, with many shops having a larger used game section than new games.
Yet most gamers fail to note the consequences, nor do they care as long as they get the best deal possible.
We all want the cheapest prices possible, yet the industry doesn't work that way. Without going in to specifics, us gamers are just one piece of a well-oiled machine, with our money doing more than just showing devs that we like their games. With used games that sell in their truckloads, think about the loss if you were the developer.
While this is one aspect that seems to be falling on deaf ears outside of the industry, I do question whether or not consumers really care at all about this, on top of piracy itself.
But for as long as you pay for the game someone else payed for before you somehow get to support the shop that sells the old and new games so that it's some sort of additional backup for the industry - just as the one that sold the game(s) is capable of buying new ones with that while else nobody could or would have bought it in that place - so that 4 used games you see in the stores make up one game.
Carbonox_Ratchet
19-10-09, 17:29
That leaves 3 lots of cash sums that doesn't make it to the dev's pot. Your comparison holds no weight. It's irrelevant who bought the game before you; you're still not contributing whatsoever to the income of the developers, thus the developers are losing more money than they already lose from new game sales (only a percentage - not all - of the money goes back).
These days I still see Diablo 2 being sold, but who still remembers Baldurs Gate?
I do and im pretty young
These are things that made me wonder, but mistakes are mistakes, the one or the other way - the way how you handle them in your way to bettering yourself is that what makes it.
Sorry but what mistakes? You mean that you used to pirate games?
Yet, looking through various SNES Rom sites I found that there are basically no Nintendo Games to be found for such reason, also declared as copyrighted and thus removed - on the other hand side I can still find Squaresoft and Capcom strongly represented, and so, what do I got to believe from that?
Of course they were removed, if you noticed, there´s wii virtual something where you can download for money old nes and snes games, which means although those games are old, they still do some profit.
What do you got to believe from that? :p
Personaly i think that one of the key factors is company´s customer support - for example, as an ex-pirate(first page, look at my post)i didnt have the heart to download a valve(so much content for free :O)game but i didnt have a problem with EA games - i hate EA. But i soon started to recieve some pocket money and after capcom send me so many free things, i realized that pirating games is unfair against companies... well, only against some, EA should improve their customer support :D
I bought MHFU UMD, I personally believe piracy is wrong because it does no one a favour.
Didn't anyone else find this statement weird, it's been bugging me for a while...
How do they link? :whosthere:
Although I have my suspicions :sour: :spy: :whistle:
Crashjohnson
20-10-09, 10:35
Then why would you want them if they're not worth it?
for nostalgic purposes? do yo never get the itch to play games, or watch movies or shows for years and years ago? I mean you jsut want them to watch or play once in awhile? I simply fele having the SNES emulator saves time and money and space then buying a snes that is likely broken down and having it shipped to you, to play a game that you probably won't want to play for another 5-10 years? when I can use my pc to play it, and its not stealing as they are no longer in productiona nd the companies aren't losing any money over it? if i had a wii I'd download most of these games and save space on my com, but I don't sadly, and someof the games I can't get on the wii anyway. lol see my point?
No, I don't, Crashjohnson. If I think I'll want to watch a film more than once, play a game more than once or read a book more than once I buy it legitimately. Like it or not, the tools you are using and the way you are using them are not legit.
I'd suggest that we stop the conversation here - please check out the rules on discussion on piracy. Last thing I want is having to get out the banhammer.
Headless-Leon
20-10-09, 12:53
The only real way to tackle pirates is to retake somalia!...*cough* ok bad joke *holds hands up*
The only real way is to take down the rippers, targeting individuals who download from those people to install fear so other people dont do it is just not working these days.
Take TPB battle for example, people are trying so desperatly to close that site down but are using the wrong means and efforts, dozens of times that site has been moved around isp's to get out of the isp block issued by courts, why not just target the groups who are uploading instead of going after the search engine? its idiocracy at its best, waste of money and time on lawyers and court battles.
iiAVENGERii
29-10-09, 10:43
I would just like to say thank you for everyone who took part in my thread, and replying. This question has really been intriguing for me and i have looked at everyone's reply and they are all good from an insider and outsider point of view.
I think its best we locked this, I think common sense really let this thread die, although I do respect that your taking the opportunity to thank people, it wasn't really that necessary.
People have said what they want to, lets stop it before someone jumps in without thinking and regrets it.
iiAVENGERii
30-10-09, 11:26
I think it's best that I don't end this thread because a lot of people are expressing their opinion and I want that to continue, so i'm not going to lock this thread at all.
demonsnail
21-11-09, 18:58
Yes..yes it is...If I like a game, then I will buy it because I respect the team that worked on the game/movie/music track...
Nabil Mishima
21-11-09, 19:59
If I created some work which I'm proud of, and someone stole it. I wouldn't like it but then again I suppose some ppl are desperate.......
piracy is wrong. if a game is good and truly deserving of classic status it will be re released anyway. i dont even agree with the current trend of downloadable media. it's not just about the producers and actors/artists/proformers involved in the production of media but the promoters and graphic designers put out of bussiness by the downfall of physical media.
Sky_Dragon
21-11-09, 20:54
I honestly can't even see why this is being debated? I mean firstly it's illegal, and secondly it has an extremely detrimental affect on future games. Imagine if people had stolen copies of RE:2, then there would be no RE:3, no RE:4, no RE:5. Personally I feel that if you steal games your not a real gamer and you ruin it for me!
Why not try making a game with open source codes and beg donation of it? That's a way to get round piracy, it think.
Btw, way isn't there a documentry about game industry and piracy? Is it that the media are to lazy or they rather report Paris Hilton?
thezombiemessia
21-11-09, 23:27
Btw, way isn't there a documentry about game industry and piracy? Is it that the media are to lazy or they rather report Paris Hilton?
There are tonnes of documentaries on Piracy as a whole. There is little point in focusing a documentary to one specific type of piracy though, as it is all so similar.
On Piracy: On Piracy & The Future of Media (Part 1 of 2):
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3011602580477307231&ei=04QIS6zFPIrN-Qb6pYyoDg&hl=en#
On Piracy: On Piracy & The Future of Media (Part 2 of 2):
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-2086992039557619301&ei=04QIS6zFPIrN-Qb6pYyoDg&q=Media+Piracy&hl=en#
iiAVENGERii
06-09-10, 09:13
Many people seem to justify piracy is right because of the laziness of the producers of the games in terms of layout, structure and content of the game. However that is why there are magazine reviewers, newspapers and many more who inform people of the game and tell them what to expect before people actually buy the game. So in my opinion i think piracy is wrong.
Piracy is wrong and I believe yes they should put measures in place to stop piracy namely targeting distributors not downloaders, but lets be honest here everyone has pirated at some point maybe even without knowledge it's piracy, whether it's a game, a song, an album, a dvd and even older: recorded vhs tapes. So even our parents are probably guilty.
What we need to work on is a secure way to protect IPs but so far I haven't seen very effective DRM going in. One thing is for sure it can't carry on like this if you want an example look at the Demi God fiasco where there was a massive amount of pirate downloads and players even more than paying customers and they crashed the servers.
So we need DRM to work and not to unnecessarily hinder users (I'm looking at you Ubisoft). It also wouldn't hurt developers to take a step back and say we had this blockbuster game which was pirated a lot and this blockbuster one which wasn't as much, was it because of DLC in the game box? was it because of interesting pre-order items? was it because of additional features? was it because the game was cheaper than normal?
Whether we like it or not piracy exists so the games industry can either adapt by using effective DRM or making buying a physical copy more appealing or haemorrhage potential profit every release.
iiAVENGERii
07-09-10, 06:30
But isn't it true that when people do take measures to stop piracy, there will always be some people (hackers, etc), who will always find a way? Some people might see it as a good thing so that they can toughen up their security, other people might see it as a bad thing because no matter what measures they take they still can't stop piracy.